Maybe friendships are reciprocal relationships, that are completely 50/50 in terms of give and take, but when one person in the relationship has sacrificed an extreme amount to give you the things you have and allow you to live the life you have, it’s hardly the same type of relationship anymore. And nobody is “breaking” any side of the relationship, in that scenario it is culturally expected for parents to have a lot of sway over what their children do in their adult lives.
Sometimes people put stock in things outside just dying in terms of “things which it would be nice to avoid inflicting on people you love who also love you in return.”
Yeah, god forbid someone attempt to give you some perspective on the cultural implications of the easy solution of severing ties with your entire family so they can’t tell you what to do anymore. :rolleyes:
It may surprise you all to know that there are still lines I won’t cross just because they will completely break my family’s heart. Major things. Hell, I even tried to come halfway - I dated an Asian man. His parents understand that the difference isn’t that vast. Mine do not.
But I am willing to go only so far. Like I said, there are some rules I will never break.
Which can be seen as emotional extortion by many people if the threat of “extreme disappointment” is used in a manipulative manner. Would this perception be wrong? No, it’s just a perception that is not necessarily shared by everyone in the world. The OP might benefit from someone sharing these perceptions with her (as posters are doing here), if anything, so she can better understand where her Westernized BF is coming from.
If neither the Western way or the Eastern way is superior to one another, I don’t see why the OP should automatically cede to only the Eastern side of life. The OP is in a predicament precisely because she’s straddling the fence between two worlds. Thus, “stand up for yourself and assert your autonomy; that is the American way” is no more offensive, insular, or wrong than “put your parent’s wishes in front of your own needs and lie; that is the Korean way”.
Then I guess I would ask if tying to your parents about major life choices, and disobeying them in making those choices, is a Korean cultural norm. I’m skeptical, but I’m willing to be educated about it.
Little white lie? Moving in with someone and hiding it is a little white lie? They may need to create dozens of other lies to cover the main one.
For the moment, let’s say OP tells her parents the truth, and tells them she loves them, but she is making the decision as an adult and she hopes they will accept it, and adds any other reassuring words that she can. IMO, if communications break down at that point, it will not be her choice. It will be her parents’ choice.
I agree with treis that the OP cannot satisfy both cultural expectations. I don’t necessarily agree that the lie/coverup idea will ultimately make it worse. If the OP believes she will be stronger emotionally or psychologically in the future and better able to deal with a confrontation, then delaying it is reasonable. But the OP should keep in mind that it is also possible she won’t feel more capable in the future, and have an additional ongoing stress of maintaining the lies.
No. My mom treats me like a child and probably always will. (One of the very perceptive things my husband said was that it’s important for my mom to feel that we are dependent on her.) So it goes. This doesn’t erase all the great things about our relationship both in the past and in the present. (To address another point: I sure as heck am not going to desert my parents when they get old and get Alzheimers, even if I am not getting as much out of the relationship as they are at that point!)
I’m… not entirely sure that maintaining plausible deniability (note that this does not necessarily include lying except by omission) isn’t deferring to them or being a proper Korean daughter. Koreans place a very high value on appearances and face, and sometimes that’s enough; the whole entire dirty honest truth isn’t needed. My mom, actually, keeps things from the rest of the family all the time, usually because she thinks we can’t handle the truth, and she thinks that’s being a proper Korean mother.
Here’s something else to consider - when my family finally found out we were living together, unmarried, years had passed. I could plausibly say most of the things they were dreading never came to pass. They assumed I would flit from one man to another, or that he would leave me. Instead it was clear to them that our relationship was strong. That ceased a lot of the grumbling, and in my mind, it was definitely better to just keep it to myself.
I agree with this, keeping your mouth shut is not lying. But I just can’t imagine that the OP can move in with her boyfriend and live with him indefinitely without resorting to deliberate lies sooner or later. If she can, more power to her.
I’m an American who married a Korean (now American). My spouse very much wanted to escape the Korean culture, but when we faced this question we chose the traditional answer: we did not live together until we were married. That is, we maintained separate apartments, although we spent all our time together, switching between locations as was convenient. The parents were not happy, but being a continent away and having the fiction of separate residences made the situation tolerable.
Ask yourself why you want to live together and not be married. As a working professional, I’ll assume you don’t need to because of financial considerations. You can be together all the time whether or not you live together. You can be married and not have children. You can have children without being married. Instead of thinking in terms of the big pictures (“living together”, “married”) think in terms of the details you want (“sleeping together”, “cooking for one another”, “children now or later or never”, “parental approval”, etc).
Once you know what you want, find out what your beloved wants. It might not be the same; do not assume. Make sure he understands your culture and your wants. If he loves you, he will try to understand and make accommodations. Americans are often unaware of other cultures and unaware that they are unaware (I was, too, at one time). Valuing one’s individual choices over one’s family and community is a cultural idiosyncrasy and not universal. Don’t be pushed into doing something because “that’s how Americans do it”.
Then you can decide what to do and what to tell your parents.
Parents and family are different in those two statements. My mother, who was the strongest against it, died last year, and my dad now regularly introduces my SO as my husband (even though we are not married).
But that’s just the point. Almost fifteen years ago when I was moving in with my previous SO it was time for Defcon 5. Now it’s like…if you must, and just let your dad lie about it anyway.
Ok, then Korean families are stranger than I thought. Your earlier post said your aunts knew too, and both your parents, and this didn’t get spread around the family? All my aunts and uncles and cousins would know it in a couple of weeks.
On edit,
Oops, sorry I’m confusing you with the OP. I believe you said your background was Indian. In any case, my amazement stands.
On 2nd edit,
Oops again, didn’t catch you were were talking about two different SOs and two different experiences.
You don’t think a parent/adult child relationship is reciprical? :dubious: I’m still unclear WHY you’d want to waste emotional energy on people who aren’t adding to the quality of your life!
Honestly, yeah, I would. I wouldn’t use those words, but if someone is expressing that they want to move in with a boyfriend (who is from another culture) and the only think holding them back is what their parents think, then yeah, I’d be suggesting that they do what they want or what they feel is right for themselves and their relationship rather than making a choice based on the ideas of their parents. I guess it seems to me that if you’re already in this situation - Korean, dating a white guy, really wanting to move in with them or British Catholic in the US wanting to do the same - then you’ve already made the choice to be “westernized” in this matter.
I acknowledge that it won’t be easy, it might lead to hurt feelings and anger and distance between the person and their family, and I understand that that is the very problem people are struggling with. But as I said, it seems the choice of what they personally feel is right is already made: remove the parents from the equation and nothing would hold them back from moving in with the partner.
Let’s just move a few years in the future…the Korean girl is still with the white guy, they are (or aren’t) now married and have adult children. Would they expect those kids to do exactly as they say, the way their parents expect of them today, or would they recognize that the culture shift has already happened, and recognize the value of letting their kids make their own decisions?
I’m sympathetic to the struggle people are going through, though for me, personally, there isn’t one at all. The again, I’m a white chick married to a white guy…there’s a minor anglo/franco issue, but that comes up about once a decade, in joking, and I really am aware of quite how much of the family dynamic I don’t understand. My parents have pretty much never insisted I do anything at all; they have only ever offered suggestions and let me do what I choose.
Also, we live 7000 miles away from the family, so it was easy for my parents and aunts to never tell the rest of the family. They were ashamed, see. And I certainly didn’t have direct contact with India. So it was easy for them just not to call.
Korean pop culture has become considerably more westernized in the past 10 years. However, familial culture is a much tougher needle to move. In some more progressive families I’m sure living with a GF/BF might be accepted. But even if accepted within the family a couple living together before marriage will inevitably face much scorn from outsiders.
Will it ever be widely accepted domestically? Probably not.
Will it ever be more widely accepted among Korean expats in America? Probably.
My thoughts on deception? Not a good idea. I’m guessing that her parents made considerable sacrifices to send her abroad–possibly at a very young age–to study in the US. This would be considerably more support/sacrifice than typical American parent’s could even fathom. For the most part Korean kids/teens/early adults are completely dependent on their parents (especially if they’re living abroad). A child of any age or culture willing to repay this love with lies doesn’t deserve the opportunities they were given.
If this couple is serious about being together they can make that case to her parent’s over time. Deception is never a good path. It’s better to be honest and deal with the consequences.
I was about 28 or so and lived in my apartment in Brooklyn. I was smoking a cig and there was a knock on the door. My dad.
I let him in and we had a great conversation as the ciggie buned to the butt since I would NOT smoke in front of him. I know I could - it was my house. I know that he knew that it was mine.
But that little bit of something in me wouldn’t cross that disrespectful line with my dad.
Now as an adult in my 40s, my mom was sickened with Parkinson’s disease and had to come to live with me.
I’d have overnight company BUT I never let my mom know. No need to make her feel bad just to be honest and “adult”.
I think kindness is a big part of adulthood that you’re lacking. Perhaps a little wisdom too.
I’d go out of my way not to hurt my loved ones and if a lie is involved it’s well worth it.
Spending a bunch of money to maintain separate residences isn’t exactly what I would call doing what you want. Besides, maintaining plausible deniability is short hand for lying.
Look, my point in this thread is that you can’t satisfy two conditions when those conditions are in conflict. OP needs to decide where the line is, how much she values her relationship with her parents, and what is the minimum level of discourse she will accept from her parents. You see this all the time in business, sports, and relationships. An existence of two incompatible requirements with painful consequences for failing to meet either of the requirements. What happens is that the decision continually gets kicked down the road, with the end result being worse than if the painful decision was made as soon as the conflict became apparent.
Yeah, Koreans are heavy on the secrets for things they are ashamed of. My mom once had a fit that my sister told my cousin she was rejected from a particular medical school. (Long story short, my cousin found out my sister had been rejected in error… but my mom still was upset because you don’t tell people things that would reflect badly on the family, even if they have a happy ending.)
See, this makes no sense to me. Let’s say, to take a different example, your parent gets old and doddery and maybe is not all the way there in the head any more. And hanging out with this old doddery not-quite-there person is not adding to the quality of your life. You’re just going to drop your parent like a hot potato and never talk to him or her anymore?
If so, okay, cool, that’s your thing. That’s not the way I was brought up, and it’s not the way I want to bring my kids up (although to be fair I’m not going to bring them up in a lot of the ways I was raised).
So I’m unkind now? :rolleyes: Just because I expect to be treated by an adult by my parents. Your home is your castle, if you want to smoke in your home, it’s not your dad’s place to tell you not to. And if your girlfriend is sleeping over, how is it your mother’s business? :dubious:
Well, I wouldn’t exactly call it not doing what I wanted, either (which was to spend lots of time with my boyfriend and be able to do things like have dinner together with him), even if it might not have been what I would have done in a vacuum (sure, ideally it would have been nice to save the money).
Is it lying if both parties know the truth? My mom knew my sister was having sex. She just didn’t want it to be something she had to confront. Maintaining a separate residence let everyone’s face be saved.
I dunno, both my sister and I have a pretty good relationship with our parents now we’re married (modulo the occasional argument about trying to run my child’s education). End result was much better than if we’d flatly cohabitated.