Least thing that Ladder Theory guy could do is mention Tom Leykis, since that’s an almost word-for-word copy of Leykis 101. :dubious:
I always disliked the “you can’t disprove this, therefore it must be true!” logic thing in the No Male Friends argument and a few of the other parts, though I will agree with a lot of the stuff presented in the theories. Which is the major reason I don’t bother with dating anymore. 
From astro’s cite: “And if you think it’s important to establish sexual tension with some touching on an initial meeting, it’s extra double important to do so on a first date. If you don’t break the touch barrier on a first date you are DEAD MEAT!”
Please tell me this tid-bit of information is totally unnecessary! Tell me there isn’t any couple out there that would go on a date and they’d never touch each other through the course of the evening!
How would you avoid some casual contact? You take her arm while walking across the street, you high-five each other after a joke, she kicks you under the table to alert you when someone else does something stupid in the restaurant…
It’s not like a Big Decision[sup]TM[/sup] has to be made: “Should I (shudder) TOUCH her now?” Touching is gonna’ happen in the normal course of events.
If two people go on a date and never touch each other, they both need a shrink, not a book of instructions. IMHO, of course. 
As for the nice guys finish last thing, I don’t think that’s correct. Timid guys may finish last. The old saw: “Faint Heart Never Won Fair Lady” seems to be accurate. A guy can be both nice and forward enough to succeed at the same time.
Just curious: were you at one time (or perhaps still are?) attracted to men who acted like jerks? If so, what attracted you to them?
Sadly enough, I was kinda this guy. I was so damned worried about being a sleazeball that I’d freak out about touching a girl I was attracted to. I mean, I could hug her good night, but more than that was very difficult for me.
I eventually got over it, but it took a looooong time, and at least one female friend telling me what an idiot I was.
Daniel
Well, of course my opinion on the topic is to be taken with a big grain of salt, but:
The stuff quoted in the OP just sounds like wishful thinking from a guy who wants to believe he has more control over the situation than he really does. Attraction is either there or it isn’t. You can’t just go on as you are and change a few surface things like being more touchy-feely, and expect that to be enough to convert those who aren’t attracted in the first place.
There are rules, but it’s stuff you have to do before you even come in contact with the other person. You have to be more self-confident and know that you’re worth being with. And yes, you have to dispel the idea that being a gentleman is the same thing as being asexual. But those lists of rules are just desperate attempts for guys to come up with some quick, shallow, and easy explanation for why they’re not getting laid. They’re not the “answer.”
The main rule is “Be Yourself.” And if “yourself” isn’t working, you’re going to have to make some more fundamental changes.
I’ve known several “nice guys” who started making superficial changes in order to get more success on the dating front. While they did end up getting more action, they also ended up unhappy, complaining that they were getting sex but it was unsatisfying. The desire for a more intelligent, long-term relationship with someone they saw as an equal was still there.
Not touching someone during a date isn’t always sure disaster, you know. Some of us have much larger personal spaces than others and really prefer not to be touched by people we barely know. Hell, some people aren’t wild about being touched by people they know well. Casual touching might build sexual tension for some people, but for others it seems vaguely intrusive. Watch body language, and if you’re not getting a positive reaction, keep your mitts to yourself for a bit.
I’ve heard a lot of guys in this thread and in real life describe themselves as “nice”. Y’all need to realize that “nice” might mean different things to men and women. Some of the guys who describe themselves as “nice” and that I knew IRL (I don’t know any of the guys in this thread other than online, so I can’t comment), really weren’t all that nice. Nice doesn’t just mean that you won’t slap a woman around. It means taking an interest in a woman OUTSIDE of the bedroom. It means that you’ll do your share of working on a relationship. It means not puffing up your accomplishments or lying about them altogether (example, one “nice” guy showed me his personal ad, which had among his other theoretical good points that he was an inventor. He tinkered with stuff, but didn’t have any patents, and in fact hadn’t even applied for any patents. He was lying in his personal ad about other things, too…he though of himself as nice, but didn’t fit my definition of nice.) I could go on about what men and women think of as “nice”, and how the terms differ between the sexes, but that’s another thread.
I’d like to point out that the websites offered here are aimed solely at guys who want to get laid, and are not really looking for a long-term relationship. Yes, the methods outlined will work with SOME women SOME of the time. The women these methods will work on, though, are generally not the kind of women that you’d like to take home to meet your parents. If all you guys want is a whore, then fine, follow those rules, and that’s what you’ll get. But be honest about it, and don’t try to say that ALL women are bitches and/or whores.
Upon reflection, I’ll not dispute your point. Everybody has a right to their preferred personal space. But… I never went out on a date with a female when a good deal of touching didn’t happen, and there never was a problem because of the touching.
Maybe I’m simply not attracted to those types who would feel threatened by casual touching and therefore never asked one of them out. ??? Good an explanation as any. 
Some “nice guy” traps people fall into:
-Waiting too long to ask someone out - don’t be like Ross and get to know a girl for 10 years THEN ask her out
-Waiting for the “right” girl or being too picky - unless you are getting laid like Collin Farell on acid, ya might want to think about asking out the girl who shows interest in you instead of waiting for Mary Promqueen to dump Steve Ripplepecks.
-Ruining the friendship - So you might not have someone to shop with anymore. The friendship is going to get fucked up anyway as soon as one of you starts dating so go for it.
-Waiting too long to make your move - This is a tough one. You spend 2 hours with someone, all waiting for the right moment to lean over and smack a kiss on her. It also requires some subtle technique and body language. You don’t just all of a sudden plant your face in hers at the wrong moment otherwise she’ll freak out.
Here’s a general rule: Basically ignore every girl. Be polite if one speaks to you, but be noncommittal. “hey…”, “nuthin…”, “idonno…”, “maybe…”, “later…” are the only things that should come out of your mouth. If no girls are talking to you, casually say “wassup…” and continue doing whatever you are doing (which should be nothing). Remeber, the longer you talk to her, the more time you have to say something stupid.
After a few minutes, she will get confused and walk away (“ok seeya”.). Wait about 10 minutes and ask her “hey…you wanna get out of here?”. She will either:
a) say “no thanks”
b) ask “where are you going?”
c) say “I’m with my friends (which she probably will be)”
d) say “ok”
your response should be:
a) “alright later”
b) “this place I know” pick someplace you regularly go (bar, your appartment, someplace cool)
c) “bring em along”
d) go have sex or a beer or dinner or whatever it is you do with women.
Lynn! The sites may be all about that, (don’t know, didn’t click on them) but I do feel that most of the guys answering this thread were talking about normal, “let’s see what this can develop into” sorts of actions early on in a relationship, NOT cruising for whores.
If anything I posted led you to believe otherwise, allow me to apologize.
Ain’t that the truth. Just liking her body and wanting to screw her isn’t going to be enough for some women. They want to know that you give a damn about them as a person. What are her talents and interests? What kinds of movies does she enjoy? What books does she read? Is there something to be admired about her mind, her accomplishments or her attitude, or is it only about getting her into bed as soon and as frequently as possible?
Once again, ain’t that the truth.
I also found the “ladders” site to be beyond bitter. Yes, I know I’m a female so I’m not supposed to know what I’m feeling or some such bullshit. But I still say it was bitter—painting women to be whores who only cared about looks and money. Well, to me, looks are important enough (you’ve got to be attracted to the guy, after all), but for a lot of us, “attractive” can be . . . well, attractive and it’s an intangible thing that can exist in a short balding guy or a wide variety of physical types. (And it does for me. There are some hottie short balding guys out there, believe me.)
And money? Well, I don’t think that most women are looking for a slacker whom they’ll have to support, but I daresay that many women are more interested in finding a guy (at least for anything long-term) who they (the women) find “attractive” and who actually gives a damn about them as a person, instead of viewing them as just some personality-free bimbo who will put out immediately.
When I was single, I was chasing this one girl, and she was giving me all the come-on behaviour, but would cool off every time I made a move. For months. It was very frustrating. Anyway, one night I was out in a bar with her and her sister, and I was behaving like the gentleman that I normally am.
At one point, her sister went to the bathroom, and was walking past the bar when this (to me) sleazy young guy edged her past him - for no reason, since it wasn’t crowded - by putting his hands on her hips and sliding her round him. She giggled and fluttered her eyelids at him. When she returned to the table I remarked on her reaction, and asked them whether women - as they saw it - responded to that sort of thing. The girl I was fond of said “yeah, we’re friends with nice guys, but thinking about it, we really do respond positvely to that kind of behaviour”.
Just their 2c, but I thought I’d share. (BTW I never scored with that girl.)
CrazyCatLady might want her personal space, but if I was on a date with a guy and he never touched me, I’d be bothered by that. I’d have to wonder if there was something wrong with me - if my breath stank, if I had some sort of horrible growth on my fact that I was somehow aware of… You don’t want your girl sitting at home wondering what on Earth makes her so repulsive; you want her wondering about you. And not in a “Well, maybe he’s just not into chicks” way, either. It doesn’t have to be Tune In Tokyo time, but just brush up against her shoulder when you’re walking or touch her arm when you’re reaching for something. Just enough to let her know that she isn’t emitting Man Repellant.
And kunilou is dead on about the nice guy problem. When you’re younger, it’s easy for a girl to get “independant and confident” confused with “semi-abusive and sleeping around.” And guys can get “nice” confused with “passive.” If you always want to do what I want to do and you always want to be around me, I’m gonna wonder if you have opinions and interests of your own, and that’s not good. Either that, or I’ll think you’re trying to trick me, and that’s not good either. You’ve gotta be confident. And girls sometimes have to get burned a few times before they stop dating dicks. But it’s not some sort of secret formula - “Do this and you’ll get laid.” It’s about being comfortable in your own skin and finding a girl who’s mature enough to appreciate that.
Granted, but of my many insecurities in that period of my life, I don’t think one of them was, or should have been, doubting whether I was nice. The phenomenon of the guy whose friends are almost all women, whose female friends commisserate with him about their lives romantic and non-, who trades dark emotional secrets with female friends, but who never gets into any sort of romantic or sexual entanglement with any woman–I can tell you that this phenomenon is real.
Heck, one woman I was attracted to went with me on a date to a Hallowe’en party, and afterwards when we were chatting about the party, she told me what a shame it was that all the nice guys at the party were gay. When I begged to differ, she, shocked, told me that she had no idea I was straight.
There are some “nice” guys who are really just self-pitying jerks who drive women off like a mangy dog. No question. But there’s also some who foolishly try to make themselves asexual in an attempt not to offend women. The advice one gives to the first group has got to be very different from the advice one gives to the second group.
Daniel
See, that is why these “Guides to Getting Women” are so frickin’ stupid. Women aren’t a monolithic entity with homogenous tastes and preferences. Trying to follow arbitrary rules like those in the OP, it’s not going to get you much of anywhere, really, because they don’t take into account the diversity of women. Yes, those rules will work with some women, some of the time, but so will any other set of rules.
Although both guides mentioned in this thread piss me off, I do think there’s some basic and practical advice that folks can get about dating and flirting, advice that I really wish I’d gotten when I was thirteen.
But you’re right: the most important piece of advice is to pay attention to the person you’re interested in, and don’t piss them off. If you’re on a date with someone, and you brush their hand flirtatiously, and they flinch, don’t do it again.
The basic advice you can give is not dependant on all women or all men being the same: it’s dependant on realizing that most folks want to have some form of romantic companionship, and that most folks want it to be with someone interesting, pleasant-smelling, and confident.
Daniel
I believe this phenomenon is real because I’ve seen it referenced time and time again on the SDMB. Prior to my becoming a Doper, if you had asked me if such a thing existed I would have said that it did not and could not exist.
Here (from a LOOONG time ago) is the sum total of my sharing deep emotional secrets with a non-SO female:
Me: “Barbara broke up with me today. You know what’s going on?”
My sister: “That guy that works at the Zippy Mart likes her. He’s got a car.”
Me: “That sucks. We were getting along great.”
My sister: “So go find yourself a girl that’s got a car.”
It would never occur to me to seek out a female for the sole purpose of friendship. I’ve got female friends, from meeting them through work related situations. We’ll have some drinks, dances and laughs when circumstances permit, but we don’t share emotional secrets, and we don’t go shopping together.
Also: "But you’re right: the most important piece of advice is to pay attention to the person you’re interested in, and don’t piss them off. If you’re on a date with someone, and you brush their hand flirtatiously, and they flinch, don’t do it again."
And, if she did flinch, I wouldn’t ask her out again. But YMMV. Takes all kinds to make a world, I reckon.
I’ll second that as well, although the majority of ‘his’ friends needn’t necessarily be female, imo.
Move over, Sasquatch: Daniel’s on the scene!
('cept I’m blissfully married now–this is the ex-Daniel I’m talking about here)
Sure, sure: the whole point is to figure out if y’all click, right?
That makes me wonder if there’s a better way to phrase the “be yourself” advice, which never made any sense to me anyway.
Maybe just tell folks who are trying to figure out romance, “Do what you’re wanting to do. If s/he doesn’t like it, stop. But don’t refuse to do it in anticipation of his/her not liking it, you idiot.”
More of an existentialist than an essentialist piece of advice.
Daniel
"Maybe just tell folks who are trying to figure out romance, “Do what you’re wanting to do. If s/he doesn’t like it, stop. But don’t refuse to do it in anticipation of his/her not liking it, you idiot.”
Yeah, that works!
“More of an existentialist than an essentialist piece of advice.”
Now you’ve lost me. What ya’ tryin’ to do, make me dust off some of my ancient textbooks or somethin’?