Women want to marry nice guys, not date them (reading required)

CAUTION: Additional reading required

I think it goes without saying that men, on the whole, don’t understand women. I think it is also quite true that women don’t understand women. While so many talk about wanting “nice guys” and the like, I don’t think that’s really true when it comes to finding a new guy to date. If it were false, it would offer credence to the age-old adage, “nice guys finish last”.

I’m fairly certain that any women who respond to this thread (after doing the requisite reading) will tend to disagree with the content of the articles. However, I am interested in finding out female opinion on the theses proposed by the articles.

The articles are all by the same author that calls himself “Doc Love” and is a regular contributor to the online mag, Askmen.com.

The three that I think best represent his opinions are

Are You A “Nice Guy”
Why Do Players Get The Women
Getting The Best Love Advice


Too many pop up ads.

I don’t have the time or patience for pop-ups now…

but as soon as I hear someone talking about “nice guys”, I always direct them here


Yet it is also true that in nationwide polls when one sample was asked asked to name the top ten things they look for in a date and another was asked the top ten things they want in a husband American women gave the following results.

Not one item was the same in the two compiled top ten lists.

In other words women don’t date the kind of man they want to be married to.

so do women just find a nice man and marry them, no dating?

honestly I don’t see how the two lists can be completely incompatible

I think the type of man women choose is based on their emotional maturity. I think the young and immature (sometimes not one and the same) are drawn to “bad boys”. When they grow out of that, nice guys become a priority.

It’s simple. Women hate the qualities in men that make them attractive.

Compile a list of what women say they hate in men, and another list of what they find sexy (not nice; not what they want in a perfect man, but SEXY,) and you’ll find some disturbing parallels.

Bad quality Sexy quality
Pushy Aggressive
Brutish A real he-man
Cocky Self-confident
Asshole Firm and decisive

It’s easy to see that the kind of men women get hot over are exactly the kind of men that aggravate them. And the kind of men that are perfect for long-term relationships are simply not sexually attractive.

Women don’t like to admit this to themselves, nevermind explain it to men.

The trick for guys is to be a complete barbarian until we get them in bed, then, if we want to keep them, let them turn us into the wimpy house-husband they can live with.

Oh, and the barbarian’s presence will still be required in the bedroom, from time to time.

Same goes for men - they like to ogle hot women, and sleep with them… but want to marry a “nice” girl who they can bring home to ma and pa.

“Nice” is sometimes synonomous with “doormat”. I date a great guy who is kind, compassionate, loyal, loving, yet has his own opinions and passions. I’ve never liked “bad boys” as they say, I don’t have the time or patience for their “coolness”.

Seriously, maybe it’s the nice guys who are going after the wrong women then if thay can’t seem to get them? Sometimes it’s the nice guys who can be naive and go for the perfect “10” who may be out of their leage…

Yeah. Men are attracted to the wrong type, too.

If you can manage to overcome being physically attracted to the wrong type, your chances of happiness increase dramatically.

However, most people are screwed.

Sorry about the popups y’all. I think they normally give you a popup about once every ten pages. I’ve gotten used to them and didn’t know that they were quite so prevalent for outsiders (those without cookies governing the popups yet).

Mallocks, I think the idea is that women want to marry nice guys, but they want to be the one that made him a nice guy. I think that women are quite preoccupied with changing a guy. One of the most attractive qualities is finding a guy that “needs” them - not because he is “needy”, but probably especially so because he isn’t.

While all of the relationship “experts” out in the world will tell a guy that he needs to be honest, caring, open about his feelings, and doting upon his girl, I think that is going to be the death of most relationships. There will not be any interest on the women’s parts. There’s no challenge there. Hell, one date and his caring, doting, open self is already licking her boots. Where’s the interest? I agree with the author of the articles that the key is to maintain mystery. Be a challenge. Instead of letting her know what a prize she is, be the prize.

Some keys:
Never call her for one week after the first date. Keeps her wondering if you have a good time and if you’re going to call.

Let her do all of the touching for the first few months. Women display affection and affinity by touching. They read your touching the same way. If you withhold that, they will crave it

Under no circumstances should you tell her your true feelings or display your “sensitive” side.

Of course, these all come with the caveat that a guy must be pleasant, respectful and considerate. I would never advocate being a mean guy. There are women that get off on that, too, but they certainly aren’t dating material for a normal guy.

I’ve started using these techniques and am having an outstanding growth in success with women. Where relationships often petered out (I’ve always thought that phrase was kind of gross - I’m not sure why) after the first couple of dates, I’ve discovered how to keep their interest levels up there where I want them to be.

I dated, lived, with, and nearly married a “nice guy.” Turned out to all be an act. Once he had “acquired” me, he dropped the act and became a miserable bastard.

If there are any genuine nice guys out there who aren’t hiding something, I’d like to meet one, but I’m not holding my breath either. My theory has always been that we’re drawn to jerks because we know what we’re getting.

I dunno. I think about this occasionally: though I’m married now, I had a helluva time getting dates all through college. And I like to think I’m a pretty nice guy.

The thing is, I never blamed women for my lack of dates. I’ve always been pretty clear on what my problem was:

There are very real skills involved in dating and flirting, and I sucked at those skills.

Things like knowing how to flirt, and knowing how to recognize a flirt. Complimenting somebody in a light, friendly manner. Being at ease with sexual tension. Making the first move occasionally. Not getting all stressed out at the thought of things turning romantic.

I just couldn’t do it.

It wasn’t because I was obsequious or patronizing, as Mith’s link suggests, and I hate it when people suggest otherwise. It was just that I couldn’t tell when someone was flirting with me, and when I became attracted to someone I turned into a complete goober.

People who are good at these skills often don’t realize that they’re skills: they assume that flirting comes as easily to everyone as it comes to them, and that people who can’t get dates must have something intrinsically wrong with them instead of realizing that those folks lack an important set of skills.

On the other hand, lots of people who lack these skills don’t realize that they’re skills, either. They see assholes who are skilled at flirting getting laid, and assume that the problem is that women like assholes.

It’s more mundane than that, I think. If you know how to flirt, and if you can do it lightly and easily, you’re gonna hook up with someone, whether or not you’re a decent person. If you don’t know how to flirt, it’s going to be hard as hell to get some lovin.


Some of this stuff about holding off calling her, preserving the mystery, etc. really reminds me of The Rules. When that book came out telling women to be mysterious and flat out weird, there was a big uproar about it from every direction.

So now some dude has repackaged the Rules for men, I guess.

There is a big difference between “nice guys” and pushovers.
I like a guy who has his own opinions and isn’t afraid to voice them. I like a guy who can stand on his own two feet and am as independent as I am. That being said I do not like games and I can read straight through a supposed nice guy trying to win me over, and a guy who is following a set of rules to avoid the “nice guy” label. In the end the ones I date and look for in a relationship are the ones who are genuine. If you want to call, call. If you are out with your friends having a good time, don’t worry about it.
Just keep it easy in the beginning. There is no reason to rush. Relationships should be a progression and if you take that into consideration but are yourself I find you attractive. In the end it works out better for the guy as well. Usually if you pace yourself both people recognize if its going to work or not - much less drama.

Yeah, I suppose it is “The Rules” for men. I don’t really have problems with men or women having “rules”. Most things in our world are done through deliberate effort. One advances one’s career by doing, knowing and being seen doing certain things.

The funny thing is that I often find that women find a guy’s use of “rules” quite tacky. Yet these are often (note, [EMW2] that I dind’t say always) the same women that check every month’s issue of Cosmo for advice such as Ten Ways To Make Him Fall Head Over Heels For You, What Guys Really Want And How To Give It To Him, and How To Make Him Let You Have Your Way Without Even Realizing It.

I think that guys need these things far more than women, yet the resources just aren’t there. Women are the one’s that decide whether they will go out with guys. With the slightest bit of effort, any gal can get a guy to approach her; they hold all the cards. Guys, on the other hand, tend not to really understand how relationships work. It’s almost like they’re just along for the ride. Just as a WAG, I suspect that 80% of relationships are ended because the woman decided it should end.

I think that the use of tactics to help to sell yourself is more the use of “tools” than the use of “rules”. The many men that don’t understand the dynamics of women and relationships almost need these tools to level the playing field.

Most nice guys I have seen are doormats: they simply don’t have confidence and self-esteem. They are wimpy, they bend over backwards in attempts to please women, and some of them hardly have any character at all. Women don’t need pieces of Play-Doh following them around.

If you are a “nice guy,” ask yourself, do you have sufficient self-confidence? Are you a pushover?

I am the “nice guy.”

I don’t think I’m wimpy. Although I really don’t know what you intend that to mean in this context.

I have self-confidence, heck I’ve never failed at anything I’ve really tried my hand at.

Strength of character is a problem for me but not on the low side. I tend to have to tone down my presence for some people because (I have been told) I intimidate the hell out of them.

I am not Play-Doh

I also have never been on a date in my life precisely because of what our society has turned dating into.

Oh, BTW: My wife thinks I’m a nice guy as well.

My fiance is a nice guy. I dated him while he was a nice guy. I went out with him because he’s a nice guy. I like nice guys. And I’m really, really sick of people who tell me that I don’t.

I live in Indianapolis, but you’ll have to talk to my wife, first.

My theory is that people need to grow up and stop seeking out destructive people. Believe me, the liars and poseurs are usually pretty easy to spot–they’re the ones who are oh so VERY sensitive and oh so VERY considerate. When it’s too good to be true, it’s too good to be true.

Genuinely caring men exist, but we generally don’t put on an act to “prove” how nice we are.

I’ve seen many a young woman fall for a man who is so VERY nice and so VERY caring. Of course, he’s a player and it’s quite obvious to the men who see him that he’s putting on an act.

Well, that doesn’t do me much good now does it? Though I am genuinely happy for your wife that she’s got one of the good ones. I assume she deserves you (and I mean that in a nice way, obviously).

Your theory is probably right in a lot of cases, but dead wrong in mine. My ex wasn’t a player. I wasn’t a naive young girl. (He was a software developer/choir director who drove an Escort and begged his friends, at their twice-weekly D&D games, to fix him up because he was tired of being single. I had spent my late teens/early 20s clubbing in NY and Europe.) He was a long-time friend of a long-time (male) friend. All my other (male) friends thought he was a really nice guy too. I once told him, early in our relationship, he had all the best qualities of my gay friend who was previously the best ‘date’ I’d ever had. Then circumstances in his life changed (he sold his house, his seriously ill mother moved from his house to his brother’s) and he turned into a total jerk after a few months living by himself. (I won’t go into it here as it’s very long and WAAAY off topic.) Still… he said he loved me and wanted to marry me, so we moved in together. I loved him (the old him anyway), and knew that he was going through a lot of stress at work, so I thought he was taking it out on the people around him. Even his closest friends were shocked by some of the changes. Then it turned out that the ‘old-fashioned’ attitudes such as opening doors for me included ‘old-fashioned’ ideas such as that I existed to cook dinner for him, while he spent all his time in the other room playing games on his computer. I ceased to be a part of his life other than as someone to look after the house.

And no, I was still not the one who ended the relationship. He threw me out when I tried to remind him that I was once more than just the maid.

None of my friends, male or female, could believe it. Of course, they hadn’t seen us together in ages - we never went anywhere together anymore except to visit his family - so they had no idea what was going on.

Before I met him, I hadn’t dated in nearly five years because the previous guy was such a jerk I just wasn’t about to put myself through that again. I spent the first six months with this wonderful guy waiting for the other shoe to drop. When I finally began to believe it wasn’t going to, it fell through the floor.

So even though I’m mostly joking when I say we date jerks because we know what to expect, there’s a grain of truth behind it. I’m currently not exactly dating and not particularly looking. There’s a guy I see occasionally, who I wouldn’t necessarily call a jerk but he’s not someone I’d have a serious relationship with. We hang out, have a few drinks and play air hockey, with no pretense that there’s a relationship happening. It’s fine for what it is.

Which is all just a long way of saying… if I do get married (not holding my breath for that either), it WILL be to a “nice guy” - but it’s going to take a heck of a lot of dating before I go that far.