How to date - for clueless people, by a clueless person

A friend I met online asked me for a primer on how dating works. I’m really not the person to ask -I don’t have a great deal of experience in this regard. But my friend has less, so I said I’d give it a go. I’ve pasted my response here– does this stuff seem to have merit? Is there anything you’d take issue with?

Friend,

Honestly, I’m not all that great with women. You’d be well-served to take my advice with a generous pinch of salt. However, I do get dates, and there are things that seem to work for me, which I’ll talk about here.

The most important thing for you to realize is that, to a really surprising extent, the ways in which you’re messed up don’t matter. It doesn’t matter that you think you’ve got crap social skills, or that you’ve never been in a relationship, or what have you. Oh, they matter to you – you can remember every time you couldn’t work up the nerve to ask a girl out, or lacked the savvy to realize she wanted you to, or a girl told you that you made a fantastic friend. But I promise, there isn’t a giant, blinking “failure” sign flashing over your head. When you sit down for drinks with a girl you’ve never met before, she doesn’t know a blasted thing about you – she doesn’t think of you as strange at all. In fact, if you’ve met her online, and she agreed to meet you IRL, she wants to like you. She’s there because she thinks you seemed nice, interesting, probably cute – and it’s human nature to want to be right. That woman is looking for reasons to like you.

I’ll talk more about that in a minute. But first, let’s talk about how you get to drinks with that woman in the first place. As I mentioned above, meeting women online is a good option. There really isn’t a stigma attached to it any more (if ever there was), and meeting women online plays to your strengths: You can think, and you can write. You have time to do both, and you’re doing them from the comfort of your computer. So, join an online dating site. I recommend OKCupid – it has a large userbase, it’s free, and it’s worked well for me. But any site will do. Just complete your profile, taking care not to say anything self-pitying. Try to be funny, if you’ve a knack for it. And make sure you include at least one good photograph – it’s technically optional at most sites, but leaving it off is a terrible idea. This shouldn’t really be a photo you take yourself in the mirror – try to find a photo of yourself having fun, maybe from a vacation.

Once you’ve got your profile set up, start looking at the profiles of the fairer sex! The trick isn’t to simply send messages to the most attractive women – though, of course, you don’t want to message anyone you think you wouldn’t be attracted to. What you want to do is actually read the profiles, and respond when you see something that actually triggers an amusing response. You know how you snark or joke on friends’ Facebook wall posts sometimes, or post a related link, or something like that? Same deal; if a woman says she likes zombie movies, maybe you ask her whether she prefers fast or slow zombies. If she replies, you can talk about why you like fast/slow zombies, and maybe about something else on her profile, and so on. These messages are conversations, so start them when you’ve got something interesting to say.

Unless you’re some sort of Adonis (and possibly even then), you won’t get a response most of the time. This isn’t because you’re coming off wrong; that’s just normal. Pretty girls on dating sites get a lot of messages. Keep at it, and eventually you’ll get hits. When you do, don’t just keep tossing messages back and forth forever. You’re not looking for a pen-pal, nor are most of the women on these sites; if you’re hitting it off, you can ask a woman out for drinks after a few days, or even after a single day. (I just came home from a second date with a woman I asked out for drinks a couple hours after “meeting” her online).

Unless you’ve got problems dealing with alcohol, I do recommend grabbing drinks as a first date. Drinks can last as long as you’re having fun, but dinner takes too long if you aren’t hitting it off. A movie or concert doesn’t give you enough of a chance to talk. And coffee tends to make people tense – the relaxing effect of a drink or two (don’t get drunk!) is more conducive to a fun first date. You can – and should! - try for different ideas for dates later on, but there’s a reason drinks are a cliché first-date thing. If you want to stand out, find a bar your date probably isn’t familiar with; whenever I’m taking out a woman who doesn’t know DC well, I suggest a “speakeasy” bar that doesn’t have any street-front signage. Very good drinks, and my date learns about a new place she’ll probably like; people enjoy doing that.

So, you’ve asked a girl out for drinks, and she’s said yes. Nicely done! What do you wear? When in doubt: a solid-colored, button-down dress shirt and dress slacks. You really can’t go wrong with that. If I’m going to a higher-end bar (like the speakeasy mentioned above), I like to wear a suit; suits look good, which helps keep you feeling confident. If you don’t like suits, though, then you don’t need to wear one, and for most bars you shouldn’t. You do need to wear a dress shirt and slacks, though. Clean and freshly ironed; even if they’re machine-washable, your best bet is probably to just drop your clothes at the dry-cleaner the day before.

Now you’re at a bar, and you’re actually sitting down with your date. And right away, it’s awkward. You’re nervous, maybe she’s nervous, and you can’t think of a damned thing to say. This is awful!

Calm down. Of course this is awkward – you’ve never met this woman before in your life, a few online messages excluded. It’s okay that this feels awkward; it doesn’t mean you’re screwing up. Just say something – ask her how long she’s been in your city, say, and talk about how you ended up there. If there’s a funny story involved, tell it. Odds are pretty good that things will get less awkward fast – people like talking about their lives, and the conversation will tend to drift to other things naturally enough. If you’re hitting it off, this will be fun. You might not hit it off – again, this doesn’t mean you’re doing anything wrong. Most people just don’t click. You can go back to OKCupid (or whatever site), and try again. But the odds are that, even if you don’t click, you can get a decent conversation going. Remember - this woman wants to like you, and she’s trying just as hard as you are.

If you are hitting it off, you might consider making a move. Don’t take this too far on a first date; there’s a lot to be said for being what is termed, quaintly, “a gentleman.” But gentlemen aren’t eunuchs, and your date almost certainly isn’t looking for a eunuch. This is, after all, a date. If you’re actually attracted to a woman, you need to let her into your personal space. If you’re sitting next to her, and she slides closer to you, don’t slide away! For that matter, maybe try sliding closer to her; don’t trap your date against a sofa arm-rest, but if she seems into you, perhaps get a bit closer. Maybe rest a hand on an arm or leg. Judging when a woman is into you is a hard thing to describe, and I’m not that great at it to begin with – but she might be touching your arm a lot, or laughing at your jokes, or leaning in closer to speak than is necessary. If you think your date is into you, you might as well act on that belief a little bit; if you’re wrong, she’ll move away, or even ask you to knock it off. Not the end of the world, so long as you’re not being a boor and groping the poor woman; people get signals wrong all the time.

Do you kiss the girl when your date is over? Depends, but I’d say “Probably not,” unless you’ve had an amazing time and really *want *to kiss her – in which case, there’s at least a chance she might want you to kiss her, too. If you read her wrong, again, not the end of the world – even if the date went really well, she might just give you her cheek, or say she’s shy (I’ve had both happen), or what have you, but it’s not likely you’ll deeply offend a woman this way. (I wouldn’t try it at the end of a bad, or even lackluster, date, though. Only if you’ve got some real chemistry going, or at least honestly think you do.)

Finally, you’ll go home. If you think you want to see her again, ask her out again. Wait a day or two, first.

You can do this stuff, man. Seriously.

A great post!

Moved MPSIMS --> IMHO.

I’ve never done online dating but I used to work for coughs through name of very, very large and well-known site so I’ve seen way more than my fair share of online dating profiles, and I want to say two things:

  • overall: very good.
    and
  • and especial big ol’ thumbs up to the “nothing self-pitying” part

The only other thing I can think to add is that young straight people who’ve never been in relationships tend to start thinking of the other gender as this complete OTHER, this strange being of a different species. They’re not. They’re human beings, just like you’n’me. They’re not a goal, nor are they aliens. They’re just lookin’ for love, just like you’n’me.

A few things else to add.

Friend,

Make certain your photo is current, and shows both your actual appearance, and something of your personality. If you are into museums for example, you might go and get the guard or a friendly stranger to photograph you in front of the t-rex or some such. Don’t hide who or what you are. Most quality women are not as choosy about looks as we are lead to believe.

On that note let’s take a moment to discuss your grooming. Before a date, make certain you are clean, have had a haircut, ( or done your long hair back etc) shaved whatever parts of your face are relevant, or trimmed and combed your beard. Do not use aftershave or cologne unless you are accustomed to wearing it. If you do use it, be very sparing. Too little is far better than too much on a first impression.

Ask a female friend to help you with your wardrobe or take you shopping if you aren’t certain you have anything good to wear. Confidence is very important, so while your clothing needs to be appropriate to the location of your date, you also need to be* comfortable *in them. A button up shirt, clean jeans, and decent pair of shoes or boots is good for a casual place, change the jeans for pants at a nicer place. An alternative look is to wear nice jeans, a new print t-shirt and an dress jacket or blazer. Go easy on your jewelry if you are prone to wearing it, though if you have a nice watch you may want to consider wearing it.

When interacting with women for the first time it is a good rule to not take up more than 50% of the conversation. Ask open ended questions and listen to her answers. Let her steer the conversation around a bit if she seems willing to do so. Be careful not to stray too far into your favorite topics unless she is also into them. It is better to SHOW you know about something than to talk about it. For example, if you guys go to a pub with lots of craft beer and you know all about it and she doesn’t, you could help her pick something she might like. Don’t just order for her or talk about tech terms she won’t get. Alternatively you might order a sampler of different beers and have fun trying them out. You could then subtly use your knowledge and her reactions to find fun drinks. Both methods allow you to demonstrate your knowledge and competency. Your confidence will help you relax and make a good impression on her.

A more adventurous option is to go and do something that neither of you have ever done, but both have an interest in. The experience will be new to you both, giving you plenty of things to talk about, and you will learn about each other through one anothers reactions to the experience.

Excellent, Mr. Excellent, but I think you left out an important detail- things to talk about.

There is NO REASON why any dater should have to think of something to talk about on the spot when you’ve had hours to think about it beforehand. Every time he goes out, he should follow the “five-finger approach,” as I call it. Prepare five questions that are open-ended that will cause the person to open up and expound upon the topic. They should be:

  1. A current event everyone’s heard about- “Did you see what Syria’s been up to lately?”
  2. A recent popular media item, like a blockbuster movie or book coming out soon- “What do you think about all the J.K. Rowling hype recently?”
  3. A silly proposition- “So it’s the end of the world. What’s your zombie escape plan? Everyone has one.”
  4. Something directly about them - “I saw on your profile you like chess. How did you get into that?”
  5. Free space. Anything you want!

Why is it called the five-finger approach? Because before you go out, you look at your index finger and memorize a keyword or prompt from #1 being printed there. Then #2 goes on the middle finger, etc. So on the date, you can look at your hand and think “Syria, Rowling, zombies, chess, Wyoming”.

You don’t have to go down the line in order, either. You can select the question that most likely applies to your current situation. If you prepped well enough, that should be more than enough to fill any gaps in conversation.

Above all, let them talk! People love talking about themselves and appreciate when people listen. Ask follow-ups about themselves, their thoughts, their history, their hobbies, etc.

At then end of the date, she’ll be saying “Wow, we really connected,” when in reality, all you did was ask her questions.

Thanks for the feedback, all. Chessic Sense, I’ll be using your five-finger approach myself - seems like a useful mnemonic tool. Thank you!

Ooooh, AcidLamp made a good point that I overlooked: anyone doing the online dating thing, even sporadically or casually, needs needs NEEDS to have at least one really good photo of themselves: current, well-lit, solo, current, showing some aspect of yourself - where you live, what you like to do, etc. - and also current.

The solo thing is surprisingly important: I saw too many profiles of people who only posted pics of themselves and like eight of their buddies. People either can’t tell who the hell you are, or they’ll think you’re your cuter friend.

Please don’t post prom photos from thirty years ago just because they show you with a full head of hair that you now don’t have or without the extra pounds that you now do have. Don’t lie about your age, either.

I can tell so many horror stories about people whose only photo was of themselves passed out drunk, or of themselves holding up their own camera in the bathroom mirror under the shitty bathroom lighting. (It, um, makes you look like you have no friends who’ll take a picture of you for you.) And for some reason a lot of guys posted pics of themselves standing in front of their cars. If you have a Bugati or something I understand, but some of them were just shitty old econoboxes - wtf is up with that?

Because that’s what you’ll be using after the date ends?:wink:

Hmm, I think I’m still missing something. What’s below “clueless”?

Very sound indeed.

One thing I would add is: Have your own opinions. Its OK to disagree.

No woman wants a man who is going to agree with every little thing they say

Great advice! I’d add this: Always keep perspective.

While your long-term goal may be to find someone to be in a relationship with, and/or have sex with, and/or whatever you’re looking for, your short-term goal for the first (and maybe even second and third) date is simply to have a good time. Most dates are not going to “lead anywhere”, so if that’s your objective, you’ll usually be disappointed. But most dates *are *going to be at least somewhat entertaining (and the few that aren’t will probably be good for laughs later). Even if you don’t end up getting together again, as long as you had fun, it’s still a successful date.

Same goes for the person you’re dating - perspective is crucial. Remember that their profile is not a window into their soul; it’s just a very rough sketch to let you know whether there are any obvious reasons why meeting this person would be a waste of time. Do read it thoroughly - they wrote what they wrote for a reason - but don’t obsess over it. And for the love of all that’s holy, do not quote sections of it back to them*.

It’s all too easy to convince yourself you know this person better than you do (which is not at all, remember), and start imagining how great it’s going to be when you’re together. This puts too much pressure on both of you. Just go in with a totally open mind: “This person stands a non-zero chance of being someone I’ll enjoy spending the next couple of hours with. I hope we have fun!”

*Yes, this happened, and it was not even the weirdest part of the date.

Go to places where women are already drinking?
It’s been awhile since I’ve dated, but I would disagree with wearing a suit unless you are going someplace really high end or unless you want to give off a Barney Stinson vibe. And what’s with the dress shirt and “slacks”? Women aren’t impressed with men who look they just came from casual Friday at Deloitte & Touche. Unless that’s what you always wear.

You want to dress in clean, neat clothes that are appropriate for the venue. Remember that your clothing is an extension of your personality. You shouldn’t be getting dressed up in some outfit that is a radical departure from your normal attire (or some bland outfit you might wear to church with your parents if that is your normal attire).

I would also avoid dinner dates initially in favor of dates where you are actually doing stuff together. Long dinner dates tend to devolve into boring “interview dates” that end up as a long Q&A session.

A lot of your advice applied to online dating, which is totally fine. I just wanted to add that some of the best advice I’ve heard for meeting people IRL is to go out even when you don’t feel like it. Making it a habit to get out of your house and hang out with people not only gives you more opportunities to meet and approach single people, it also (1) helps you improve your social skills, (2) helps you make friends who have single friends, and (3) makes you less depressed about the fact that you want an SO and don’t have one.

Excellent, Mr. Excellent.

For clarification, the part of the leg you are aiming for is a few inches above the knee and on top. A guy who knows better than to go for the big slurpy kiss at the end of the night (unless things are really moving) SHOULD know better than to rest his hand on your leg high on the thigh and towards the inside - but since this is for the clueless. …

Also, arm is not “that part of the arm that lets you cop a feel to check if her breasts are real.”

From a woman who has been on plenty of online dates…

Spend five minutes looking at interesting things happening on date night or post-date venues (ice cream, drinks, bookstore browsing, someplace with cool live music, whatever) nearby. Nothing sucks more than having a good time meeting a guy and wanting to spend more time together, but not knowing where to go or what to do and ending up walking around awkwardly looking for someplace to be.

The best date I went on was when the guy took me to dinner and then presented me with a couple of options for where to go next (one active and fun, one quieter and more conversational.) It made him look hip and with it and like a fun guy who was good for fun adventures, while allowing me to have some choice in what direction the evening would go. It also made me feel like he cared that I had fun- which was sweet.

Quoted for truth. When I hire young, new sales people, I have them wear their suits for a month. Everyday. You have to be comfortable in your clothes.

If you want to dress up to impress dates, then dress up your normal attire.

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I would also avoid dinner dates initially in favor of dates where you are actually doing stuff together. Long dinner dates tend to devolve into boring “interview dates” that end up as a long Q&A session.
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Or getting trapped into dates from hell, where he/she tells you while all 47 of his/her ex’s were terrible people.

For the clueless out there “was sweet” on a first date translates into a much higher percent chance for a second.

Most of the advice in this thread seems to be aimed at men, and how they should behave and act.

I’m curious, what sort of advice would apply to women in the online dating world?

Great post! I’d only amend the following:

I’ve done the online dating thing a fair bit, and I never let a first meeting/date end ambiguously: I always come right out and say either, “It was nice meeting you, but I just don’t think we really clicked” or “I’d like to see you again.” I think the guys I meet appreciate knowing where they stand at the end of the night, and I like getting to find out where I stand with them. I’m not saying that the next date needs to be scheduled right then, but at least give the other person a clear indication of whether you want to see them again.

I’m a woman, and I think that most of Mr. Excellent’s advice applies to either sex: don’t sweat the small stuff, and remember that the other person is usually just as invested/nervous/screwed up as you are.

Don’t lie about your height.

My friend is 5’10", so for her, height kind of matters because she feels very awkward and insecure around shorter men. She has dated shorter men that were good guys, but it’s something that plays into how she feels about herself and her dates.

So, if you’re 5’7", don’t say you’re 5’11" on your profile page - she’ll notice, and think much, much less of you than if you were confident about your height in the first place.
Also, don’t criticize too much. This same friend met up with a guy after having spent 16 hours at work (as a nurse), with 2 deaths over that shift and on about 3 hours sleep from before work. She was tired, and told him right away. The date went well, but afterwards he sent her a bunch of bitchy text messages saying that she’s “inattentive”, “a bad listener” and “blames everything on tiredness all the time.” When she basically responded by telling him that it wasn’t going to work out, he turned around with “why are you doing this to me, you’re perfect for me, what’s your problem.” So…don’t be that person!