I apologize, I was answering the OP, not commenting on your relationship. The OP says that this girl he is interested in spends a lot of time in Bible study, goes to church every weekend, etc. I realize now that Lissa Lisslar was responding to you, but I was confused who was talking to who.
My point still stands towards the OP.
Thanks for the wonderful advice so far. I feel that I should clarify my stance so that I may address some of the concerns expressed. This issue of respect is a huge one. I am tolerant of religion until someone preaches at me. So as long as the words ‘hell’ and ‘sin’ do not come of your mouth, I will be respectful. Once those words appear in conversation courtesy goes flying out the window. This was the case even before I defected, however, because of the nature of the church that I was raised in.
Most of my previous college relationships have failed because of my inability to commit more time to my SO. My job and studio course uses up most of my free time. Fortunately, her involvement with various activities has created a similar situation. We are able to spend considerable time together because of the unique hours of freedom that we both have. Until my hours normalize, time should not cause too many problems.
I am really impressed by everyone who is succeeding in interfaith marriages. Being in a partnership is already enough of a challenge. Generally speaking, I would rather have my children raised outside of the influence of one particular religion. They can choose whatever they want when they get older.
I don’t think couples need to agree about everything, but I do think that, if something is very important, perhaps central, to a person (be it religion, a belief in free-market economy, the importance of hiphop to modern culture), then it is bad for the relationship for the other person to be unable to respect that position. Postulating that your partner only believes in something because of brainwashing seems disrespectful to me.
If I am reading into that statement things which are not there, I apologize.
Well, a person who believes in hell and sin should be able to use those terms without “preaching at you,” unless you mean using the terms in context of saying that you are a sinner, and you are going to hell, in which case you’re right – a nice hot mug of STFU is in order. But your agreement that respect is required IMO isn’t really reconcilable with your statements "I often have difficulty hiding my true feelings about the hypocrisy of it all. Eventually, whether we date or not, my disdain will surface and threaten the relationship.’
Those don’t sound respectful to me, frankly.
That last post of Jodi’s is pretty much exactly what I was going to say, so: yeah, what she said.
Those words (sin and hell) can feel like hate speech to a humanist. They are a deal breaker to me as well, no matter the context, and I am well out of school and nearly twice the age (I think) of the OP.
But Lissla, what you you imagine we atheists think about why other people are religious?
We believe that there is no such thing as God, therefore all religious people are mistaken. So why do they believe in God? Because they were taught to believe in God when they were kids, and they continue to do so. “Brainwashing” may be a bit harsh, but it’s the truth. People in ancient Greece believed in Zeus because their parents taught them to believe in Zeus, people in India believe in Krishna because their parents taught them to believe in Krishna, people in Iran believe in Allah because their parents taught them to believe in Allah, people in the US believe in Jesus because their parents taught them to believe in Jesus.
If I didn’t think belief in God was incorrect, I wouldn’t be an atheist. So does that mean I have disdain and contempt for everyone who isn’t an atheist? No, because I think I understand where religious impulses come from and why they propagate over the generations. There are lots of smart, decent, caring theists. Whether someone is a theist or an atheist tells me nothing about whether they are intelligent or not.
You seem to be arguing that a rational atheist must feel contempt for theists. While we have some examples on the dope of atheists who do feel contempt for theists, very few atheists actually do. I may feel contempt for certain religious people, but my contempt is not based on whether they are religious or not, but on their words and actions.
Anyway, back to me in particular. My wife is jewish, I’m a stone atheist. We go to Jewish events, the kids are raised Jewish, and we have absolutely no conflicts about religion. If my kids grow up to be theists or joined a church I didn’t belong to I wouldn’t be devastated. I’d only be devastated if they commited evil acts and justified those acts by their religious beliefs. And I’d only argue with them if they denied physical provable facts about the world, and lied about it, like creationists do. Sure, most rank and file creationists aren’t conscious liars, they just haven’t thought things through. But the creationist leadership are conscious liars, or at least practiced doublethinkers that can lie, and know they are lying, and believe the lie.
That’s fine, but why then consider a relationship with someone who does believe in the concept of sin? If your love-interest is someone who is in fact quite likely to say something like “I believe that lying is a sin, and therefore I try to be honest,” why pursue her?
Franky, this doesn’t make any sense to me. I don’t see how discussing the idea of hell or sin, without applying them directly to you, could be more “hate speech” than talking about redemption or Noah’s Ark. They are concepts that exist in the Bible and can be discussed abstractly and rationally, just like any other concept. You can think the Bible is the inerrant Word of God; think the Bible is a pretty good but fallible handbook; think the Bible is a history book or a book of myths; think the Bible is a steaming load of utter crap, and pernicious crap to book – still, you can still talk about “hell” and “sin” as concepts. Personally, if I was a humanist and thought that most of this particular belief system was a bunch of BS, I wouldn’t give any of it the sort of power over me that is implicit in elevating mere abstract concepts to “hate speech.”
I agree with Lemur866 and that brainwashing was harsh. I chose that word because I know of no other easy way to express the condition. I grew up Sothern Baptist. I was brought up to believe certain things. In the same manner, I feel that she believes those things because she was taught that they were right. If her church was anything like mine, brainwashing isn’t that far off. My old church might not be the majority though, so I couldn’t say.
However, we share similar “values” aside from religion. Our political views are pretty similar (where they don’t cross her religion, such as abortion), but we aren’t overly religious or political people. What we do share is a similar sense of humor, music tastes, movie tastes, and sense of adventure, among other things. I don’t really need to justify why I love her, as it isn’t the point of this thread. The OP was asking for those in relationships that have cross-religious views and if it could work out. I was giving my anecdotal evidence, and feel I was attacked and called a liar for it.
Our love for each other isn’t in question. My respect for her isn’t in question. You may not agree, but frankly, we will have to agree to disagree. I have friends that do stupid things, things I think they are foolish for doing, yet I still respect them as friends. I respect their RIGHT to believe and do as they wish. I don’t think you have to agree 100% with somebody in all aspects of life to respect them. My parents think evolution is a lie (as does my girlfriend). I think they are misled. I don’t hate them, don’t think they are stupid in any fashion, and see the many ways they show themselves to be intelligent and conciencious in every other manner. Just because I think it is silly or wrong for somebody to have a belief, doesn’t mean I have disdain for them.
You may think otherwise, and there we just have to disagree, because I know I respect my girlfriend, and love her unconditionally. Our relationship isn’t movie-star perfect, but when she looks at me, I see the person I want to spend the rest of my life with. I see an equal, whether we agree on everything or not.
And you know how many times our religion has come up in our relationship? Perhaps twice, early in, certainly no more than that. Yet she still loves me, and I her. To me, thats all that matters.
Fair enough.
Personally, I respect anyone who can commit themselves to anything be it religion, sports or work. I cannot, however, respect someone who is intolerant.
I more of an issue with statements along the lines of “I believe homosexuality is a sin and therefore all gays are doomed to eternal damnation.” Believing in hell and sin is one thing; passing judgment based on these beliefs is entirely different.
Agreed. I’m a practicing Christian and I have a problem with those sorts of statements too. Personally, I would be far more compatible with a tolerant atheist than I would be with an intolerant Christian.
I have a feeling I’m going to spend the rest of the day following you around this thread saying “ditto.”
It isn’t that simple. Agnostics and atheists also believe that many Biblical sins are also anti-social behavior and unacceptable. But believing that an activity or habit is counter-productive isn’t the same as judging or predicting punishment for a person who is living outside Biblical expectations. The concepts of sin and Hell are designed to condemn a behavior, and terrify a person into fitting a rigid profile.
Every human is capable of being a good and kind person with or without religious belief. But the good and kind Christian may feel disdain or disgust with those people who don’t follow Biblical principles closely. (Like couples living together out of wedlock, or homosexuals) The concept of sin requires a belief that living outside of a rigid set of rules is openly defying a jealous and angry Being, and is punishable by eternal damnation. For example: I feel that a person who is living with a loved one out of wedlock may face some social repercussions from some religious persons. The Christian may feel that the same person is openly defying God. I feel that a person who is openly gay may face a bit of gossip or discrimination. The Christian may feel that the person is a sinner in need of correction and reform, and if that homosexual is resistant, will be punished for all eternity.
As to why **Frosted Glass ** may consider pursuing a relationship with a girl he is attracted to: an agnostic or atheist has no written set of social rules, and has no Advisor telling him to avoid a believer. We have no rational or irrational reason to dismiss any human being as incompatible. And there are as many degrees of Christian as there are atheist- the girl that the OP is interested in may be a terribly kind and forgiving Christian. Or she may be a very old-fashioned and strict. There is no way to determine the extent of her belief system without long, honest conversations. **Frosted Glass ** should explore this girl’s belief system, and she his. If I were in his shoes, I wouldn’t want to be holding hands at a party with someone who is thinking “Well, sure that gay girl is smart and entertaining; too bad she will go to Hell if she doesn’t change her sexual orientation.” But if I were in his shoes, and I felt an attraction and kinship to this girl, nothing would stop me from pursuing a relationship and exploring her thoughts and beliefs.
Jodi, I was working on my reply to dangermom when you posted this, and I didn’t see it. I think my reply to her will cover it, but I can try to clarify if I was unclear. In my atheist world, sin and Hell are replaced with orientation, freedom of choice and *social and personal consequence. * A human being may go to jail for breaking a law, or may be rejected by friends and family for poor choices, but no one gets shamed, discriminated against, advised to reform, or punished by eternal hellfire for being different.
Really well said. just one question, wouldn’t “a terribly kind and forgiving Christian”, be a very Christian Christian? 
I always thought the Hell and Brimstone variety were remarkable unchristian.
Jim
Bit of a hijack. I find the idea of raising kids w/o religion, and then letting them choose to participate or not as adults to be interesting. Does any person ever choose religion as an adult after being raised free of the guilt of religious retribution? I believe (and I think most religions believe) that the only viable way to keep people in a religion is to indoctrinate them as children. Some adults choose religions as adults, but in my experience they are usually more interested in the cultural and community aspects.
My wife and I are of different faiths (christian and jew) but it has not been a problem as I am agnostic and she just likes the community.
My best friend was raised without religion by a Jewish father and Christian mother. She is now a religious Jew. So, yes, it does happen.
I have seen kids join churches in their twenties. They felt a lack of something and they got some answers in joining a church. I honestly hope my kids find the answers in studying science, but I have seen kids in Atheist and just non-church households seek out a church and end up joining.
It seems Unitarians and American Buddhist are fairly popular choices. I know at least one person whose father was a rabid atheist and she became a Lutheran.
Jim {Just a few minimal observations, I am sure a real study would vary from my observations}
shrug Both my parents were raised in non-religious households, and became devout Christians as adults. I know a lot of people who have done so. My own congregation is probably 50% convert; some of that is from other religions, but a large part is people who weren’t raised in any faith.
Beaucarnea, that’s all well and good and I haven’t got a lot to disagree with you over. But, as applied to the OP, he has already expressed disdain for religion in general, for the idea of belief in God, without knowing what sort of Christian this girl is. That, to me, does not bode well for his idea of pursuing her. He has since tempered his words a bit, and seems to claim that a more tolerant sort of Christian would be tolerable. However, FG, my thought is still that you probably shouldn’t do her any favors.