I am in love with a Christian.

In My Humble Opinion
61

[QUOTE=dangermom

Beaucarnea, that’s all well and good and I haven’t got a lot to disagree with you over. But, as applied to the OP, he has already expressed disdain for religion in general, for the idea of belief in God, without knowing what sort of Christian this girl is. That, to me, does not bode well for his idea of pursuing her. He has since tempered his words a bit, and seems to claim that a more tolerant sort of Christian would be tolerable. However, FG, my thought is still that you probably shouldn’t do her any favors.[/QUOTE]

dangermom, I find you to be one of the most tolerant and gentle Christians on board, and find your input and posts to provide valuable insight and information. Having said that, I would trust you, as a conservative Christian to give the alternate point of view. What advice would you give to **Frosted Glass’s ** girl? In general, it seems that Christians have little respect for agnostics/atheists. Would you suggest that a religious person avoid a relationship with an atheist, and if so, on what grounds? To be absolutely tolerant and fair, I think we should consider this both ways.

62

[QUOTE=dangermom]
However, FG, my thought is still that you probably shouldn’t do her any favors.
[/QUOTE]

Wow, that just sounds so snarky? Did you intend it to sound that snarky? You dislike a few words a college kid says and based on this you don’t think he should at least take a chance on a relationship?

Why shouldn’t he pursue it? It is not like he is committing to marriage or saying he is determined to break her faith. Maybe she is more tolerant than you appear from your few words written in a thread appear to be.

Jim

63

[QUOTE=Beaucarnea]
But the good and kind Christian may feel disdain or disgust with those people who don’t follow Biblical principles closely. (Like couples living together out of wedlock, or homosexuals) The concept of sin requires a belief that living outside of a rigid set of rules is openly defying a jealous and angry Being, and is punishable by eternal damnation.
[/quote]

I personally don’t see how a “good and kind” Christian could feel “distain or disgust” for someone just for not following Biblical principles closely enough. I will grant you that there are many of that stripe of fundie Christian around, but you do them more credit than they deserve to consider their worldview either “good” or “kind.” And the concept of sin does not require “a belief that living outside of a rigid set of rules is openly defying a jealous and angry Being, and is punishable by eternal damnation.” I don’t believe that, and I’m a pretty mainstream moderate Christian. Specifically, I don’t believe the parts about “rigid set of rules,” “openly defying,” “jealous and angry Being,” and “eternal damnation” – so, basically, all of it. :slight_smile:

But “sin” and “hell” are not the same as, not inconsistent with, and not replaceable by “orientation,” “freedom of choice,” and “social and personal consequences.” So, again, you must be defining the terms in some manner other than how they are generally defined in order to make those replacements.

It seems to me that more than arguing that you wouldn’t consider dating someone who acknowledged the concepts of sin and hell, you actually would not date someone who was rigid and intolerant in their understanding of these concepts, and who was willing to sit in judgment by applying them to his or her fellow men. Perhaps that is not your position, in which case I apologize for misrepresenting it, but if that is your positin, I have absolutely no problem with it. I think it’s a very fair one and it happens to be one I share, even as I believe in sin if not hell.

64

Not that you directed this at me, but FWIW, I as a Christian would consider it very important that my children be raised in the Christian faith. If my husband were willing to allow that and: (a) was not critical of my religion to the children until they were old enough to understand and apply critical thinking themselves; and (b) was not disrespectful of my religion to me, to my children, or to others by in terms of my practice, as opposed to religion generally, then I wouldn’t care what faith he was, or no faith. I don’t consider atheists stupid or immoral or not saved. I consider them to have not been persuaded by a faith system that has persuaded me, but why and how that may be is not really my concern. It’s just one of the many questions I hope will be answered someday – “for now we see through a glass darkly, but then: face to face.”

If I ever marry, I want to be married to a good man, a kind man, a respectful man, who will teach his children to be as he is. I’m not nearly as concerned about how he got to be that way, as I am that this be the way he is.

65

[QUOTE=Frosted Glass]
Eventually, whether we date or not, my disdain will surface and threaten the relationship.
[/QUOTE]

Why would that happen? It doesn’t sound like she’s going to be a jerk about her faith, but it sounds like you might. So don’t be a jerk.

By the way, there are plenty of people who use their faith only to help themselves be better people, not to judge others. Your assumption that all people of faith are hypocritical is an unfair generalization that you’ve applied to someone who sounds like a very nice person.

But rather than say “don’t try it”, instead I’ll say stop being prejudiced, approach the situation with an open mind, and you just might get some new ideas about tolerance into that bigoted bucket-head of yours.

66

All I can say is that I dated a Catholic fundamentalist . . . would you believe me if I told you sex was an issue? . . . and it ended in heartache, despite both parties trying to come around to the other side. Ultimately, we found ourselves more resolute in our original positions and it ended with heartache on both sides. I spent two years being venomous toward religion, because in most every other way this girl was the girl of my dreams.

You can save yourself allllllooooooooot of unnecessary drama by simply waiting for another girl better suited to your beleifs (or lack thereof). As hard as it is to see the picture, there are literally millions of fish in the sea.

67

[QUOTE=Beaucarnea]
dangermom, I find you to be one of the most tolerant and gentle Christians on board, and find your input and posts to provide valuable insight and information. Having said that, I would trust you, as a conservative Christian to give the alternate point of view. What advice would you give to **Frosted Glass’s ** girl? In general, it seems that Christians have little respect for agnostics/atheists. Would you suggest that a religious person avoid a relationship with an atheist, and if so, on what grounds? To be absolutely tolerant and fair, I think we should consider this both ways.
[/QUOTE]
Er, thank you. But as you probably know if you are familiar with my posts, I am not a mainstream conservative Christian. I’m a Mormon, which is a very different ball of wax in many ways. I don’t care about evolution as a theological issue, I don’t particularly care about what people do with their private lives–even though I also believe that extra-marital sex is not a good choice–and I don’t even believe in the usual version of hell. (I do believe in the concept of sin.) And, as I posted above, I dated an atheist fairly seriously in college. Actually, my husband was very nearly the first LDS or religious guy I did date seriously.

The problem is that while it may be fun to date whoever comes along, people fall seriously in love along the way. It took personal experience for me to come to believe in the saying that “you marry who you date.” I never had any intention of marrying my college boyfriend, but he wanted to get married, and he probably got hurt more than I did in the breakup. (I didn’t want to marry anyone at all, and it was very clever of my now-husband not to say the M-word for quite a long time, even though he had his own mind made up within a few weeks.) However, the fact remains that he really thought I wasn’t too bright, and while love (or infatuation) can last for a while without that basic respect, it certainly can’t survive for a long time. If we had married it would have been disastrous, and I’m sure he would say the same–we are both far happier married to the people we did end up with. But the point is that that sort of thing happens all the time–you start dating casually with no particular thought of permanence, and then realize that you have fallen deeply in love, and now what?

Anyway, all that aside, I’m not actually against people dating outside their faith, but it does take solid respect on both sides, and that’s why I’m skeptical of this particular case given the OP’s stated attitude. People can and do have good marriages without being of the same faith–but it’s not necessarily very easy, and it won’t work for everyone. For the girl in question, I would ask her if she could respect a guy who does not share her beliefs, and what she wants in her future. Does she want to share her life with a guy who does not share her beliefs? What about raising children?

I don’t personally know a lot of Christians who lack respect for agnostics and atheists, so it’s hard for me to speak to that. I’ve never heard anyone say anything like that, which I guess is what happens when you live in Northern California, surrounded by non-religious people. My experience runs pretty much entirely the other way.

68

I am a devout Christian, and am bringing my daughter up going to Church and Sunday School. I find it a valuable time to re-new a sense of community and grow in my faith.

That said, I am pro-choice, believe in evolution and do not judge another person for thier lifestyle choices (it’s their lifestyle, not mine and what makes me any better anyway?), as long as they are not hurting another person.

My journey in faith is my own.

I do not choose to witness to other people unless asked about my faith, at which time I will explain. I don’t think forcing my faith on another person “works” anyway. I did not have my daughter baptized, I had her dedicated, which menas I will bring her up in the church and allow her to decide when she is old enough.

My husband is a Christian in the basic sense of the word. He does not believe in going to church.

I don’t think I would have considered a long term relationship with anyone that was an atheist, it’s important to me that while you don’t have to be on the exact same page, you and your SO are on the same chapter.

I know that interfaith (or faith/no-faith) relationships that have worked, and some that have gone downhill.

The main key is open mindedness and acceptance of the differences without judgement.

69

My sister-in-law is devout, my brother less so. They get along just fine.

70

[QUOTE=Jodi]
I personally don’t see how a “good and kind” Christian could feel “distain or disgust” for someone just for not following Biblical principles closely enough. I will grant you that there are many of that stripe of fundie Christian around, but you do them more credit than they deserve to consider their worldview either “good” or “kind.” And the concept of sin does not require “a belief that living outside of a rigid set of rules is openly defying a jealous and angry Being, and is punishable by eternal damnation.” I don’t believe that, and I’m a pretty mainstream moderate Christian. Specifically, I don’t believe the parts about “rigid set of rules,” “openly defying,” “jealous and angry Being,” and “eternal damnation” – so, basically, all of it. :slight_smile:

But “sin” and “hell” are not the same as, not inconsistent with, and not replaceable by “orientation,” “freedom of choice,” and “social and personal consequences.” So, again, you must be defining the terms in some manner other than how they are generally defined in order to make those replacements.

It seems to me that more than arguing that you wouldn’t consider dating someone who acknowledged the concepts of sin and hell, you actually would not date someone who was rigid and intolerant in their understanding of these concepts, and who was willing to sit in judgment by applying them to his or her fellow men. Perhaps that is not your position, in which case I apologize for misrepresenting it, but if that is your positin, I have absolutely no problem with it. I think it’s a very fair one and it happens to be one I share, even as I believe in sin if not hell.
[/QUOTE]

Maybe we should start another thread to discuss the meanings of sin and Hell- but I want to clarify exactly why I agree with the OP when he says that discussions of sin and Hell cross a line.

To me, the reason that I equate sin and Hell with hate speech is because I do not feel that these concepts fairly assess or measure another human being. The Ten Commandments and many other Biblical rules of conduct do include what most people consider lawful behavior (thou shalt not kill and steal) regardless of religious afflation. I don’t disagree with these commandments- following them makes one a good citizen. But the same weight and threat of punishment is given to matters of thought control: belief that Jesus Christ died to absolve your bad behavior, sexual orientation, and whether or not you choose to perform work on a Sunday. In order to get into Heaven (and avoid eternal damnation) you must agree that Jesus Christ is the son of God, you mustn’t desire someone of the same sex; you mustn’t desire your neighbor’s wife, etc.

For me, the choice to date someone of another belief system still boils down to a person’s overall degree of judgmental behavior. I could not fully love or respect someone who feels certain that homosexuals or people of the Jewish faith are destined for eternal torment. For me at least, belief in a kind and benevolent unseen force is not a deal breaker. But predicting and prescribing eternal damnation for thoughts and actions that differ from your own: is.

Ultimately I believe that people of all manner of religion and philosophies should interact, date, and marry if the relationship is healthy. Anything less is segregation.

71

[QUOTE=Beaucarnea]
To me, the reason that I equate sin and Hell with hate speech is because I do not feel that these concepts fairly assess or measure another human being. The Ten Commandments and many other Biblical rules of conduct do include what most people consider lawful behavior (thou shalt not kill and steal) regardless of religious afflation. I don’t disagree with these commandments- following them makes one a good citizen.
[/quote]

For both Christians and Jews, failing to follow any of the Ten Commandments is a sin. So it appears you are using a definition of “sin” that differs from it’s commonly understood definition, which is a “transgression of divine law [or] any act regarded as such a transgression, esp. a willful or deliberate violation of some religious or moral principle.” (Dictionary.com.) Personally, it’s no skin off my nose how you define it, but it explains why I was confused with your use of the term.

72

[QUOTE=Brain Wreck]
Why would that happen? It doesn’t sound like she’s going to be a jerk about her faith, but it sounds like you might. So don’t be a jerk.

By the way, there are plenty of people who use their faith only to help themselves be better people, not to judge others. Your assumption that all people of faith are hypocritical is an unfair generalization that you’ve applied to someone who sounds like a very nice person.

But rather than say “don’t try it”, instead I’ll say stop being prejudiced, approach the situation with an open mind, and you just might get some new ideas about tolerance into that bigoted bucket-head of yours.
[/QUOTE]

No matter how much I sugar coat it and water it down I find the beliefs of some Christians to be offensive. Particularly those beliefs that justify hatred based on loosely interpreted non-existent bible passages. This is not a matter of me laughing and pointing. My brother is very Christian, yet he never says anything that offends me. It is not about them being family because my family gets into heated debates about everything from the origins of gospel music to standardized testing. Religion comes up in my house but no one is damning people to hell for their sins.

Whether one of is a jerk about religion or not, the subject will come up and there is no way to hide how I feel without lying. We might agree on the fact that there are a lot of fundies giving Christians a bad name but then again we might not. Even if we only become really good friends, this topic will still come up.

73

[QUOTE=Frosted Glass]
No matter how much I sugar coat it and water it down I find the beliefs of some Christians to be offensive. Particularly those beliefs that justify hatred based on loosely interpreted non-existent bible passages.
[/QUOTE]
And that sounds like something that a Christian could find at least as offensive as you could.

74

I’m an atheist and my best friend is the most christian person I know. We respect eachother’s views and I couldn’t ask for a better friend. We chose to stay friends and not go farther based on our views. I just can’t connect with her on that level, and she doesn’t care a whole lot about science. Some might ask why we are still friends. Dawkins would surely disapprove. But I don’t think Feynman would:

By the same reasoning, if you guys can make it work, then love is the most important thing. If you can’t, there can still be love and a very strong lifelong friendship. Good luck.

75

This is an interesting topic for me, personally. I’m a Christian. However, I’m currently going through a crashing crisis of faith, for reasons that are not germane to this discussion.

Mr. Stuff and I are accustomed to going to church at least once a week, and attending Bible studies and various other church-y things on a regular basis. Right now, going to church only makes me more angry and depressed than I already am, and I’ve just stopped going. Mr. Stuff has stopped going, too, except to his men’s Bible study. Anywhere else he goes, all he faces are (well-meaning) questions about where I am, and it’s tiring. In addition, he wants to be supportive of me during a very bad time, and he doesn’t feel like prancing off to church alone accomplishes that.

I feel pretty guilty about that. When we married, we were quite clear with each other about our religious/spiritual ideas, and going to church regularly and raising any children in a church environment was part of that. Basically, he didn’t sign up for a wife that was going to suddenly refuse to go to church, or pray, or discuss most spiritual topics without extreme hostility. I know he’s going to stick with me and love me, whether I bounce back or not. But it isn’t what he signed up for.

I guess what I’m saying is this: there’s enough pain out there from unexpected sources to keep everybody busy for the rest of their lives. If you already foresee something being a pretty big issue, and it’s something that’s very important to her, then I’d be pretty hesititant to date her.

But it’s hard to say without knowing the two of you. I don’t know what each of you can handle. I hope, though, you guys can figure it out to your benefit. Good luck. :slight_smile:

76

You are correct. On the other hand, I’m not sure why this needs to be a unilateral decision. Have you considered talking to her and talking about your beliefs?

I don’t see a major problem with two people with different belief systems dating. (Having said that, as a Christian it is important to me that someone I date be someone whose beliefs are compatible with mine. Not neccessarily identical, but similar enough that we could be happy attending church together). I do see a major problem with someone concealing his beliefs for the sake of a relationship.

How much the two of you discuss your beliefs is up to the two of you. Some people are happy never discussing beliefs, some people are only happy when discussing their beliefs. Most people are somewhere in between.

Don’t lie about your beliefs. Be up front about them. And then take things from there.

77

[QUOTE=Eureka]

Don’t lie about your beliefs. Be up front about them. And then take things from there.
[/QUOTE]

This seems to be a crucial point. Good advice.

78

[QUOTE=Frosted Glass]
No matter how much I sugar coat it and water it down I find the beliefs of some Christians to be offensive. Particularly those beliefs that justify hatred based on loosely interpreted non-existent bible passages. This is not a matter of me laughing and pointing. My brother is very Christian, yet he never says anything that offends me.
[/QUOTE]

Then that makes your OP even more irrational. You don’t seem afraid that your disdain for your brother’s beliefs will one day surface and jeopardize your relationship. Do you think your brother is the only rational, non-judgmental Christian in the world? Why can’t you give your prospective date the same benefit of the doubt?

79

[QUOTE=Brain Wreck]
Then that makes your OP even more irrational. You don’t seem afraid that your disdain for your brother’s beliefs will one day surface and jeopardize your relationship. Do you think your brother is the only rational, non-judgmental Christian in the world? Why can’t you give your prospective date the same benefit of the doubt?
[/QUOTE]

Not sure I follow. Dumb it down for me.

80

[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
I never thought I’d say it, Sarafeena, but I believe we’ve come to common ground regarding religion!
[/QUOTE]
:slight_smile: Northside girls!