… Rather like this link, to the Belrix’s Divorce the She-Slug
I don’t see anyone in the Belrix thread advising him to take his soon-to-be-ex for all she’s worth. I see a lot of people concerned that Belrix could be taken advantage of by his wife, who is pretty dishonest–at least with him, and maybe even with herself. We know–and, in all probability, she knows–that Belrix really wants to keep his family together. He’s almost desperate to feel that he can trust his wife at least somewhat, even if he has to risk his financial health to do so. His wife, on the other hand, doesn’t seem to be even half as emotionally invested in the marriage as Belrix is. He feels worn down by the years of unhappiness that his marriage has put him through, and he feels very down about himself and his future. That sets up a perfect situation for Belrix to be severly manipulated or taken for a ride. I don’t think it’s unreasonable that people would want to warn him against so tired and so desperate to preserve what he can of his family life that he loses his shirt in the settlement.
Foxy’s situation strikes me as very different. She’s married to a guy she trusts. She even admits that he’s an ethical person, if only because it’s too much effort for him to do anything underhanded to her. She just thinks he’s lazy, and she’s sick of putting up with someone who she doesn’t feel pulls his weight. She’s already protected herself and her assets pretty well with a pre-nup. She wouldn’t exactly lose her shirt even in a divorce settlement that was as unfavorable to her as possible. Heck–she’s the only one in her divorce with a lawyer! Her approach to the divorce doesn’t seem to be affected by any feelings of exhaustion or pain that she might have, so she’s in a much better position to negotiate terms of her divorce than Belrix is in his. She doesn’t need to be reminded to take care of herself. Belrix might.
There’s also the fact that Belrix’s posts have been about his frustration and exhaustion at trying to keep his marriage together, often at the risk of his own well-being, while Foxy started out asking a question about whether or not she’d be ripping her husband off by offering him much less in the settlement than he may be entitled to. Belrix seems to not have been paying very much attention to his own needs in his marriage, to the point where he might be letting his wife take advantage of him, while Foxy seems to be very firmly putting her needs before her husband’s, to the point where she might be taking advantage of her soon-to-be-ex.
I’d guess that the differences we see in the advice offered to Belrix and that offered to Foxy aren’t, for the most part, due to the fact that Belrix is a man and Foxy is a woman. I’d guess that these differences have a lot more to do with the history of their marriages, their respective financial positions going into their divorces, and their relationships with their respective spouses.
Belrix’s wife doesn’t seem to have two nickles to rub together. If he gets “as much as he can” (which is unlikely given the law), she’ll be broke.
What I don’t see is anyone saying Belrix has an obligation to support his wife. He children, yes. But not his wife. Granted there are no assets there. Despite the fact that she is a woman. Despite the claim here that if Foxy’s husband were a woman, people would be screaming for equitable division.
Foxy had a prenup saying her husband was entitled to pretty much nothing. Belrix apparently didn’t. Foxy went into her marriage pretty sure it wasn’t forever, and doesn’t seem to have been wearing rose colored glasses for any of it. She’s cutting losses she’s known she’d take from the beginning of the marriage (maybe not everyone’s idea of a marriage, but with the pre-nup, this is how she set it up). Belrix is getting divorced from a woman he thought he’d be married to forever, that he still has feelings for and wish she’d work on the marriage.
I think the real difference between the cases is that Foxy has fairly significant assets, while Belrix has none. And people find significant assets held by one person offensive. Cause while Foxy’s husband seems like a nice guy (and Belrix’s wife seems like a harridan) and Belrix seems like a nice guy (and Foxy - honestly, comes across like a less than warm and fuzzy person), I really suspect we are reacting in an “eat the rich” fashion.
I think the real difference is that Foxy has said that they’ve agreed to do this amicably, but she is considering withholding information from her husband in an adversarial fashion–something that she would be a lot less likely to succeed at if she admitted to him that she’s going to behave adversarially. The assets have nothing to do with it for me.
Daniel
Belrix is also saying he wants to do it amicably. People are recommending he doesn’t.
Anyone advising him to do it adversarially, while outwardly pretending to treat it amicably, is advising him to behave unethically.
Daniel
Ever been divorced, Daniel? In my experience, its a very odd situation. You really do try, even in my unfortunate circumstances (my husband moved in with his girlfriend, but I had to file for divorce), to keep some shred of what was. So there are times when you try your darnedest to behave amicabily. And there are times when its very adversarial. And there are moments where you try and protect the other person, and moments where you don’t. And moments where you try to protect them and their own stupidity gets them in the end (my ex refused to hire his own attorney as well - was I unethical to not tell him he really should have? Where was my responsibility to care for him? He didn’t even bother to show up for the hearing, so I got everything I asked for by default). I guess I was unethical in my divorce as well. And so was my sister. And my mother in law, and my brother-in-law. In fact, everyone I have known has had moments where they’ve been amicable, and moments when they’ve been adversarial.
(O.K. not my uncle. That was a kid gloves off mud wrestling tournament from the day she sent him away for a golf weekend for his birthday and pulled the semi truck to the front door, took everything, and moved all their bank accounts out of the country. No one can accuse either of them of duplicity in how they treated each other.)
Perhaps her husband is a fool for not realizing this. Perhaps he does realize it and is not a fool at all. She is letting him off without child support. He has no attorney bills. He is walking away with money that I don’t think its at all clear that he is entitled to based on the prenup - perhaps he is entitled to more, perhaps he isn’t entitled to anything. Except for Foxy, none of us have seen the prenup and few of us are experts at Florida family law. Hiring a lawyer is paying someone to play “I want to see what’s behind curtain number 3, Monty.” Maybe he doesn’t want to get stuck with the goats, doesn’t want the car, and is perfectly happy with the refrigerator and years supply of Rice a Roni.
Although that wasn’t really where I was going bringing Belrix into this. The place I was going is that there isn’t a gender based double standard working here - that sometimes women don’t deserve half the assets out of the marriage either. I find the calls of double standard to be offensive. There may be double standards here, assets vs. none. Putting on a good face vs. taking off the kid gloves. Being the custodial parent vs. being a parent who the kid may never see. But they aren’t gender based.
To be fair to you, Dangerosa, I believe I dragged poor **Belrix ** into this, specifically naming a gender based double standard. I have since stepped out because I have been rethinking it (it’s a sad day indeed when I realize I’ve spent more time mulling over issues on the dope than the work I get paid to do!!).
You are pretty much dead on with the divorce description. I had an amicable divorce, but that didn’t mean it was a warm fuzzy moment when we signed the papers. Amicable divorce means being pleasant to one another, but make no mistake: you are no longer one another’s best friend.
If you are hiding legal matters from one another, you are not being amicable. It’s that simple.
Dangerosa, I certainly have lived through a divorce: my parents’. I watched two people who I thought loved each other separate, telling us kids that it was going to be amicable. I watched them distort the facts of the divorce when describing it to us kids; I watched them talk shit about one another; I watched as they turned us kids into pawns in their divorce battle. I watched it turn ethical people into pretty damned unethical people.
YOu may not be able to avoid an adversarial tone. But the very goddamned least you can do is to be honest about the fact that it’s turned adversarial.
If you told your husband you were going to go through the divorce without fighting about anything, and he believed you on this, and you exploited his trust in you to gain something in the divorce that you would not have gained had he realized you were treating it adversarially, then you behaved unethically.
It really is that simple.
Daniel
You’re probably not too far off, here. I don’t think that I have been guilty of a gender bias, but I may have been guilty of a financial bias.
Was that directed at me, Dangerosa, or your mom?
Well, I don’t know where I gave the impression I was rich. I work hard and have a nest egg and some nice things. Making 6 figures in 2006 isn’t rich especially with a family to support.
I guess I am just at the point that I am very tired. The amicable divorce I was hoping for is falling apart at the seams. This isn’t the place to write this but since this thread is basically done for, maybe I can vent a little. He has become nasty and bitter. I paid for a hotel for a couple of weeks but after that, I don’t know what I am going to do. Why is it my job? Old habits are hard to break.
I don’t know why he wants to do things this way. I don’t know why he insists on turning this into something ugly with name calling and threats. I left my credit card number with the front desk after I paid the two weeks which will buy him a couple more weeks if needed I guess but than what? I can’t put an apartment in my name because then I will have to pay it. He can’t put one in his name because he destroyed his credit before we married and no one would rent to him. I am looking for individual rentals rather than corporate apartment complexes thinking if I pay a few months in advance, he can move in.
My son is all pissed at me because I told my husband that he can take anything he wants out of the house. I simply don’t give a hoot at this point. Just go, take it all. Doesn’t matter.
Ever just been bone tired? That is how I feel lately.
You have enough assets that you can give him $20,000. For many people around here, that’s rich. He could be entitled to $80,000 in assets - that’s a lot of money for some people. You’ve certainly given the impression that you have assets and he has none. Making six figures is still a lot better than pulling $40k or being unemployed.
I’m sorry its turning bitter. Not surprised, but sorry. It will get better.
Dangerosa–I don’t believe it’s what she did, but I was describing what behavior would qualify as unethical.
For goodness sake, Foxy. Tell the chump that he needs to have his lawyer contact your lawyer. He’s not behaving amicably, and I’m pretty sure from your posts that you’re not, either. If he chooses not to get a lawyer, that’s his problem. Don’t talk to him about stuff. You have no obligation to talk to him, to mother him: you just have an obligation not to misrepresent the situation to him. As soon as you make it crystal clear to him that “amicable” ain’t happening, you’re good on that front.
FOR THE SAKE OF YOUR SON, do not discuss this matter with your son. Tell him it’s for his own good; let him rage against that patronizing bullshit, and stick to it.
I can see you’re tired. Don’t let yourself get pulled apart.
Daniel
Oh, and not that it matters, but a $100,000 income is almost double the median family income in the Northeast; it’s more than double the media income in all other regions of the country. Everybody likes to think they’re middle-class, but you’re at the upper end of middle-class.
Again, that doesn’t matter here–it’s just that your perception of what constitutes “rich” seems to be pretty far off the mark.
Daniel
Dangit! Me, of course not burundi.
Daniel
I work for someone that makes 2.5 mil. THAT is rich. I’ll take upper middle class though since my kids are both in private schools, we have a cleaning lady and a pool service and we take a nice vacation every year. I think rich, I think disposable income. Don’t have much of that.
I still want this to be amicable and he can yell and be nasty to his hearts content but if I don’t take the bait, as far as I am concerned, it doesn’t have to escalate. I suppose the premise of divorce was okay but the reality has just begun to sink in to him. He can call every hour to yell at me some more and maybe that is what he needs, to get it all out of his system. Last call was to yell at me that I didn’t get him a smoking room in the hotel I set him up in. I told him to go to the front desk and change rooms.
About my son. I know, it is hard the he is involved and he asks so many questions about it all. Like he needs to know every detail. My son is 18 and an adult and my husband is not his father although they have been in each other’s lives since he was six. I think 18 is a selfish age. He has no problem with him leaving, he is more concerned about how the entire thing will effect him.
Here’s something odd, my daughter’s father has been gone two days now and she simply hasn’t noticed. I never realized how much he was out with friends or in his room playing video games until he was gone and nothing really changed at all for anyone. How sad is that for him? I am sure she is going to notice today (Although I said that yesterday).
I don’t think that’s rich and I make about half of that with a family to support. It’s enough to make you comfortable but definitely not what I would classify as rich. You don’t have to watch every dollar but definitely need to take notice of your finances.
You’ve got a pool and a cleaning lady and a pool service? That’s disposable income, lady. You’re way above the national average. The guy making 2.5 mil might have a client making 10 million a year, but your boss is still rich.
Good luck with that, seriously, but it seems really likely to escalate. The chance that he’s really angry about the smoking room, not about other things, seems pretty low. The more I read, the more I think you need to cut off contact and have your lawyers work something out. YOu could just have your lawyer call him and tell him that.
Hmm. YOur daughter may not have noticed, or she may be so relieved and/or terrified that she’s not sure what to say. You might want to sit her down and explain, in neutral terms, what’s going on. Not tell her that you’re tired of supporting her no-account dad, but tell her that her father has moved out, and that the two of you will no longer be living together.
I still recommend against discussing it with your son; there’s a slippery slope there, and having lived through that, I can tell you that it’d be better not to get him even indirectly involved. Tell him only those aspects that will affect him, give him as much choice in the matter as you can, and leave out the personal disputes between the two of you.
Daniel
Wonderful advice. Now to follow it. He wants to know every detail and when I tell him it is none of his business, he counters with “of course it is, I am part of this family too.”
As for my baby girl, she is well aware that daddy was going to get another home. This has been in the works for a while. She is excited about her new room and the possibility of personal daddy time. I hope he follows through with that. I need to explain that he has left and am having trouble with the “why didn’t he say goodbye?” question. “Because he is a self centered man who was only thinking about his inconvenience and anger at the time and sitting down rationally and talking to you never even occurred to him?” Truth is not so good. I will figure it out though. I will not bad mouth him, I never did that with my son’s father and this guy left me penniless with a six month old baby to go screw his ex girlfriend. To this day my son doesn’t know what happened and as far as I am concerned, he doesn’t need to.
My husband said to me last night “You are not perfect even though you act like it sometimes.” and this I have no trouble admitting. I am not perfect. I am selfish where my kids are concerned and I will squash you like a bug if you harm them mentally or physically and that includes their father’s or anyone else in my life. I don’t balance my check book, I give away too much money and buy people stuff for the wrong reasons. However, my intentions are always good and I will disagree with anyone that says differently. I am not going to drive him to a lawyer, I am not going to advise him on how to make this more difficult. I am not going to raise my voice, I am not going to fight. Someone posted here that I am an enabler and that is probably true. He hasn’t had to do for himself and if he did, he would have had to learn how. Now he is fumbling thru every little part of his two day independence and I have to help him figure this stuff out. He is lost and angry and I feel guilty and realize handing him money isn’t going to help. “Give a man a fish…”. He has two living parents who he is going to have to break down and phone soon for help.
Yes, this 41 year old man does exists. Yes, I married him. Yes, he is incapable of taking care of himself, paying a bill, making a dentist appointment or holding a job. And no, that is not why we are getting a divorce, we are getting a divorce because I am sick of having him be something to overcome for myself and my children. Of course you all are just getting my side. I am sure his side would be very different.