I Created A Monster

The BBQ Pit
181

Foxy40,

I’m sorry you’re in this position.
They don’t teach parenting at school, so all you can do is your best. It looks as if you have been far too generous towards your son - but you’re still a good person.

As others have said, you need to change the way you and your son live. It’s going to be hard, since he seems to have years of getting away with things and (for better or worse) you decided not to report him to the police.

I wish you luck and offer these suggestions:

- see if you can get advice + support from family, friends or support groups. You are under incredible tension.

  • bear in mind that lazy leeches will continue in their behaviour if possible. We had a BBC program on ‘grown up’ children who were still living at home*

  • I agree with Sternvogel that leaving some purchased locks on a kitchen counter is not a believable threat. The real message is that you are desperate not to punish him, no matter what he does. :frowning:

*“only 65% of those in paid work pay any upkeep at all - even though they earn enough money to divert some of their cash away from clubbing and into washing powder.
In addition, parents are also forking out for a wide range of additional extras, such as transport. Apart from running a taxi service, parents also provide home comforts from toiletries to the latest electrical must haves.
While only 10% of parents make regular payments to their children, most parents offer irregular “hand outs” and “loans”, which are not necessarily paid back.”

182

Heh, if you think the girlfriend was involved press charges against here as well.
My BIL and his wife stole my husbands identity when he was stationed in Germany and ran up credit cards and household bills in his name.
They had to get all kinds of proof that hubby wasn’t even in the states when this happened so he wouldn’t have to pay it back.
BIL went to prison and his wife delivered their twin daughters with a nice home arrest bracelet around her ankle.
She never fucked up again. BIL on the other hand is worthless.

I still really don’t believe that he had no clue about the way the world works. I mentioned before most kids are learning that stuff in grade school with JA and other programs. The grade school part of the program is taught in school, the high school part is a club.

You take video games and such away from children. You send children to their rooms for time out, and take away phone time and no friends over. He isn’t a child anymore even though he still seems very dependent on you.

And not to sound morbid or anything, but what would happen if you were to get hurt or decease? Granted I’m sure you have provided for him to be taken care of moneywise, but he doesn’t seem to have any lifeskills.
Those are some of the things that run through my mind. If anything were to happen to me would my children be able to take care of things after a time.
I’m sorry, I do feel some of it has to do with parenting and the people that influence him in the family.
If you are looking into mental health issues have you looking into manic depression? The money thing is an issue with manics. Does he have highs and lows? It doesn’t have to be off the deep end kind of stuff either. One week he’s happy and the other he just doesn’t want to do much but sit in his room.
I hope you aren’t looking for a mental health issue as a way of justification either. It’s serious stuff not an excuse.

183

You can get mad at me if you want, but I’m just telling you the impression of a trend I’m getting from the various threads you’ve posted here. If I’m completely out to lunch, feel free to ignore my input.

To answer your serious question seriously, having firm borders and not allowing people to step on your toes is part of taking care of yourself. Selfishness doesn’t come into it. It is important for both men and women to live good, emotionally healthy lives, taking advantage of no one and not allowing other people to take advantage of you.

184

That’s kind of the key I think. One goes to prison, and is still worthless. The other has other involvement with the judicial system and has never fucked up again.

No hard evidence to hand, but I have never seen anyone “scared straight” by prison, other than maybe a night in the drunk tank. If this kid does time, I don’t think it will stop him being a thief and put his life back on track. My guess would be quite the opposite, in fact.

185

I agree. My daughter’s school is down the block from the police station. I will stop by tomorrow morning and see if they have forms like that.

186

You might want to also think about filling some out for his girlfriend. I don’t know what her involvement is - if any (although it sounds like she might have known something) - but if she’s had any involvement then she needs to at least have her hands filled with fear as well.

187

Villa if you look at my first post in this thread you will see I mention where my mother in law very much coddled and enabled my BIL from teen years until today.
Even thought he went to prison a few times mommy has always been there to baby him and pick up the peices, pay bail, pay his restitution, won’t turn him in for robbing her blind all the while telling him everything will be okay.
He stole checks while his father was in a hospital dying for crying out loud.
It’s not his fault you see and he is her baby.
Really, Foxy could be my mother in law and I sadly see it going the same way as my BIL did. I hope for the best though even though most of my posts to this thread make me look like a bitch.
His ex-wife on the other hand learned her lesson and went on to succeed. Her parents pretty much told her she was on her own until she cleaned up her act.
Their children on the other hand are a mess. Those twins are messed up.
It’s like their mother learned her lesson about committing crimes but wasn’t such a nifty parent. Handed them everything trying to make up for the fact that their father was absent and in prison most of their lives.

188

Well, not the kind anyone would want to attend…

189

Hi Foxy40
I have to say, I am impressed by how well you are taking this. I don’t think there is much advice I can give to you beyone what has already been said. I do not agree with those advocating going to the police, but I would make it very clear to your son that if you find he has stolen anything else, you will do so.

In the meantime, I think you know what the basic steps are: selling his stuff, getting him out of the house (you’ve said a few times that you want him to move out), and getting him to pay back his stuff. I think the only things missing now are actual deadlines. You have a plan of attack - if you do agree with the excellent advice given here by folks like Jodi and elenourigby - but without dates that both he and you understand the steps are kind of empty.

How about this schedule:
August 25 (this Saturday): you will take the merchandise that he fraudulantly purchased and sell them. I like the earlier suggestion of going to one of those “We Sell Your Stuff on eBay” stores.
August 26: you and your son sit down and go over a payment plan for how he will pay you back for the items he stole/fraudulantly purchased. Maybe the eBay store/pawn shop/whatever place you take the merchandise to can give you an idea of roughly how much they could expect to get, and you can then determine how much he would owe you afterwards (be sure to add in interest payments from the credit cards he used). He will owe you monthly payments, and you and he can share a spreadsheet or some tool so that you can show him the numbers, graphs, etc., and he can understand how he needs to pay you back.
August 27-29: you and your son spend late afternoons/evenings looking at various cheap apartment complexes around town.
August 30: you and your son discuss the apartments you viewed and choose one
August 31: contact the apartment place, get the lease signed (don’t sign it yourself - this is his apartment, only he signs for it), etc.
September 1: Moving day! You may have to help him with the first month’s payment if he does not currently have a job (add it to the spreadsheet of money he owes you) but make it clear that after September 1 he is 100% on his own, financially. He must get a job now. If he loses the job or his apartment, I suppose there is the option that he could move back in with you but he must pay an equal amount in rent, plus food expenses, his share of utilities, etc. Make sure he has a spreadsheet set up where he tracks all of his costs, all of the money he takes in, etc.

What do you think about the schedule above? It gives him a week and a half to find his own place, with your help, and the dates are soon enough that you can let us know his progress.

If you don’t like those dates, are there others you could propose?

I truly believe that without a solid, step by step plan, with due dates attached to each step and an agreed-upon plan for repaying his debt, this is bound to happen again.

One other thing - I am sure that he knows he did something wrong (probably doesn’t know how bad it really is), and feels bad about it, but also wants to know that you still care for him. Once you get him out of the house, make sure you see him often. Meet him for breakfast once in a while, ask him about school, his job, hang out with him in his apartment to watch a movie together, treat him like a mom would. That does not mean giving him any money under any circumstances. But it does mean making sure he knows that getting him out of the house is a necessary step for his well-being and his own financial independence, but is not an indication that you don’t love him or don’t want to see him anymore.

190

I didn’t mean that prison was not the right thing in that situation. I meant more that I don’t think it would help in this one. I don’t think it improves people or puts their lives back on track. There does come a point where it is the only option. I just hope that in the situation here that point has not yet been reached, and prison at this stage would make the situation irretrievable. Though it might already be that - I don’t know the whole story. I’ll have to take Foxy40’s word on whether he is salvagable both as the person with the most facts and the victim of the situation. Were he to be stealing from others, then I would be less willing to think that a parent has the right to keep him from the full force of the law being felt.

191

Sweetie, I fear unless you follow through on something serious (something more than leaving locks on the kitchen counter) your son is not going to understand the gravity of his situation.

Look at it this way…he has so little respect for you he thinks nothing of stealing thousands of dollars from you. You need to show him you are NOT a doormat, when someone wrongs you they WILL pay, and that stealing money is BAD.

Quit trying to save him from himself. If he’s screwed up dental school, well, them’s the breaks. If you want a man for a son and not a little boy, you have to stop acting like his friend.

He’s 19. Quit treating him like a kid.

192

Can’t stress that enough. DO NOT CO-SIGN ANYTHING FOR HIM.

Disagree with that, though. Adding a loan to his debt isn’t helping either the parent or the kid [sic]. Just give him the money. In the midst of actually following through on the consequences, you assure him that you do love him, and that if he just wouldn’t be a fucking thief, you would always gladly help him as much as you could if he came to you in legitimate need.

193

Quoted for truth. Nothing wrong with a good hard day’s work for a respectable paycheck. If your boy has any sense of self-worth, he will feel proud to be earning his keep and paying his debts. If he feels it is “not fair” to have to work hard b/c you raised him without the spectre of personal responsibility hanging over his head, then best to at least try to get him straightened out now. As others have said, he has to face the real world eventually. The way he is now, sending him out without him understanding that his actions have consequences (not “knowing” in an abstract way, but understanding) and that it’s entirely up to him to keep a job and stick to a budget, he’ll end up in a bad way for sure.

There is no doubt in my mind that he will look for the quick buck or the quick score. (Work and responsibility is just too hard!). And that’s where the stealing/embezellment/scam job will happen. Either that or he’ll fall into a huge gambling problem trying for the easy $$$ he just knows he is entitled to.

194

:slight_smile: I actually wrote and rewrote that section about five times between giving him the first month’s rent or loaning it to him. I think both are good options, as long as he understands that if you give him the first month’s rent, it is also the last month’s rent that you give him.

195

[QUOTE=ivylass]
Sweetie, I fear unless you follow through on something serious (something more than leaving locks on the kitchen counter) your son is not going to understand the gravity of his situation.

I do believe he understands the gravity. His life has had some serious changes. His furniture is in the garage, he hasn’t been able to go anywhere because he has no money and no gas unless his girlfriend picks him up. I won’t allow him to have friends in my home either. I give him so much shit that I am even tired of listening to myself.

He has been working his new job and comes home to a long list of things to do around the house. School starts next week and his life will be even harder. He has been exploring transferring schools and getting a student loan for dorm fees which works for me. He is hating life right now as much as I hate looking at his little thieving face.

If he moves out, it will be to his father’s. He can’t afford to have an apartment and go to school full time. This was a serious thing and there is a price to pay. Perhaps not as strong as some would think appropriate but a price nonetheless. If anything like this happens again, essentially the path he was on will be gone but right now, I am naive enough to think that he is back on his path of school and dental school and this will be an isolated fuck up that we will get passed once it is all paid back and trust is rebuilt.

196

Is an apartment complex going to be willing to take him on without a job without a cosigner, though? He may have to get a job first, and then an apartment. That doesn’t mean he gets to take weeks to do it, though.

If I’d stolen fifty bucks from my mom, I’d have been in serious trouble. Thousands? I would’ve been in jail. This whole situation sucks in so many ways, I’m sorry, and considering the sheer amount of money I’m more with the call the cops people, or at least that you need to seriously consider it.

197

Anecdotal viewpoint, of no evidentiary value…

I became a parent fairly late, thirty five years old. Always had felt it part of the Agenda, but the cirucimstances never jelled. Until suddenly, they did. And I realized I was taking on the most important task I ever would, and I knew diddly squat. So I studied the people around me.

As you may already know, my preferred companions tend toward the very liberal, very permissive, while my background was, ah, somewhat conservative. So I compared my relatives child rearing with my friends. In search of some empirical basis. Which effort failed utterly.

I have seen very permissive parents raise delightful people. I have also seen them raise some hellacious snots. I have seen strict and severe parents raise polite and respectful adults, and I have seen them raise balls to the wall rebels without a clue.

So I went with what I knew best: love as the basis for all decisions. If I erred, it was always on the side of the accepting. I probably only swatted my boy maybe twice, and only under the most extreme circumsances, I would tolerate anything but defiance. And even then, it was a “cupped hand” swat, more noise than pain, more drama than trauma. I am wholly pleased with the results.

Like all people, I tend to regard my characteristics as virtues. I despise fear, I despise discipline based on fear, rather than the discipline that results from compassion and empathy. If a bad person behaves “well” simply due to the fear of consequences, they are not “good”, merely constrained.

So here it is: you have to follow your own natural bent, because you will anyway. It is useless for me to preach my approach to a controlling character who prides himself on discipline and restraint, he won’t know what the hell I’m talking about. Similarly, it would be useless to preach “tough love” to someone like myself, it is alien to my nature, any attempt would be a sham and a conterfeit. My heart wouldn’t be in it.

There is no right way, there is only your way, and someone else’s. People here have sneered most cruelly at Foxy’s dillemma (and even I will quickly admit she takes my approach to rather an extreme…) This is unfair, unkind, and unwarranted. We must rely on our virtues, such as they are, when it comes to parenting. Her way is not yours, nor mine, nor are her children yours or mine. There is no right way, there is only your way, and my way.

I regret having said nothing of consequence, but sometimes, that all you can say.

198

Salute from a fellow essentialist. That was quite lovely, Luc. :slight_smile:

199

Time out of school, on his own, might be the best thing for him.

My dh dropped out of college for a year after his Freshman year. His mom had kicked him out when he came home for the summer and wouldn’t obey her, so he moved in with me and worked at a minimum wage job until he could transfer to a different school. By then we were married. He was 19.

Getting a strong dose of the real world might be a big help to your son (assuming he can pass the drug tests required for employment). And, if these drastic changes in his personality came about as a response to college, is it really a good idea for him to return to that environment?

Worrying about dental school seems a little premature when he can’t hold a minimum wage job. He doesn’t sound like someone who’s pursuing his dream at this point in his life - he sounds like a kid who wants to play. If that’s what he is, then so be it. As long as he’s doing it on his own dime, it’s his business.

As you’ve posted more and more, I’ve gotten a better sense of your anger and I find it reassuring, for both of you. Your anger is your ally.

And we’re not “a bunch of strangers”, we’re a community; I’m glad you vented here.

200

Whatever the reason, if her son didn’t steal from her, she’d be much better off. If it was from fear of consequences, then so what? If he’s only good because he fears being caught, then it may not be the best for his eternal soul, but society will still benefit.