Most alcoholics don’t start out as such. Eventually, they develope a pyschological and often PHYSICAL dependence on alcohol. If they do not have it, they cannot function. Ever hear of the DTs? Withdrawal system?
I’m sorry, peeps, but this is a BIG sore spot with me. My aunt, one of the most generous, loving, wonderful persons I have ever known in my life-had a “problem”. She drank. She was a nurse, she had her kids, she was a wonderful woman, but she drank. She eventually got help-but the damage to her liver was so great that somehow, she caught a cold or something-I don’t remember exactly-and it killed her. She was sober when she died. Even if she hadn’t, she didn’t deserve to. And if anyone ever suggests otherwise-that she was an irresponsible, spoiled “victim”, that person is in for some serious hurt.
Again, if you have any evidence that pedophilia is a physical addiction (as alcoholism inarguably is), then trot it out. I’ll wait here. It’s your assertion, bucko; you prove it.
Don’t want for someone else to show you the door. You can leave at any time.
I’m tempted to immediately dismiss anything you say as bullshit, but in the name of fighting ignorance . . . for some people this can be the case. These are mostly the people who won’t accept responsibility for their actions. My maternal grandfather was one of these people.
However, recognizing it as a disease also enables one to treat it as such rather than ignoring it (and drinking more) or just saying to the affected person “You’re fucked up, and there’s nothing that can be done to save you.”
Once you recognize that there’s something wrong with you, you can treat it much more effectively IMHO.
What ARE all these questionmarks? I have to think that you’re pasting in from notepad or something and the character number that’s a quotation mark or something in there comes out as a question mark.
With that in mind, my reading of this quotation might be a bit skewed. It seems to me as though you’re saying that people diagnosed with alcoholism treat said diagnosis as a crutch; instead of using it to help them, they use it as an excuse. While I can see how some people (viz. my grandfather) might do this, I think it really does more harm than good to recognize that not eveyone “just drinks a lot.”
It is “often” the case that your scenario is true because many people are alcoholics. But it is not the majority by a longshot, I would venture to say having known several alcoholics.
Forgive me if I don’t take at your word your interpretation of information you don’t find to be truth. How about a nice cite or two?
Cite? And you really, really sound pompous there; unless you are yourself a researcher in this field, to say “it is anything but” when you have presented no credentials or factual information to back up your assertation is shoddy argumentation at best, and the work of a moron at not-so-best.
To my way of understanding, you’re a putz. But that hasn’t stopped you from formulating uninformed opinions and sticking to them no matter what factual evidence is turned up.
It may imply that it is not entirely the fault of the person, but it also often says “there is a way to get rid of this.” And in the case of some diseases, it is very much something a person DID to get the disease (for example, someone who smokes two packs a day and gets lung cancer).
I hope, for the sake of those cells still rubbing each other in that head of yours, that you’re being obtuse. Otherwise I’ll assume you’re the kettle looking in the mirror and thinking he sees another black kettle.
You aren’t.
Illness work better for you?
Which is nice except that it doesn’t actually define alcoholism, fuck-for-brains.
And seems not to fit either. I can abuse alcohol and not be an alcoholic. I can also be an alcoholic and not touch alcohol (last I heard, anyway. Has the APA definition changed?).
Yeah, because we can’t have anything that accurately describes a condition. That would gasp make sense, and you’re steadfastly dedicated to doing anything but that.
I apologize for the mild hijack, but I wanted to say that after reading several posts by Infectious Lass, she’s already become one of the people here I like/admire most. I really hope she keeps posting here!
And I can emphasize with the Op… I bet in about three years, I’ll be in the exact same boat, I’m already close to it now…
iampunha, the question marks are the way some browsers display the characters for real quotes, that come in pairs. They look fine on my computer, but I’ve seen others where they don’t, even if IE 4.0 was the browser in both cases.
To explain, this means that identical twins, whose genetic makeup is identical, are more likely to be the same with respect to alcoholism than fraternal twins. This is one of the most reliable methods of determining whether something has a genetic basis.
Those “twins research studies” are so FOS - everyone knows that. So let me guess… if there was a correlation in favorite colors among separated twins, then color preference would be “genetic”?
The fact is, “alcoholism” is defined by voluntary behavior and actions. And given that definition, I can come up with a million diseases.
Jeez, the hostility towards Crafter Man seems pretty unwarranted.
I did drug and alcohol counseling, inpatient, full time, for several years. 3 of my 4 parental figures are alcoholics. I know this beast up close.
Crafter_Man is onto something, and there’s a lot of people in the field who agree with him: the medical model does not readily apply to alcoholism, which while it may sometimes have a physical component to it (i.e., DT’s), is primarily a behavioral disorder rather than a physical one.
Essentially, people quit drinking when they’ve damn well decided they’re going to quit drinking and not before. Ever.
Does this mean there isn’t a place for treatment centers and for teaching people some alternative skills for dealing with and understanding cravings for alcohol?
No. There most certainly is.
Some can quit without them, and some really need them.
The thing is, we had AA long before we started trying to treat alcoholism according to a medical model. The medical model is a pretty recent development. AA was and is successful because it addressed behavioral and spiritual components.
Here’s the real reason for rise of medical model: it has nothing to do with alcoholics abdicating responsibility for their recovery. Indeed, AA takes responsibility quite seriously–hence the ‘making amends’ portion of the 12 step process. The real reason alcoholism is commonly described as a “disease” is so that treating it can be covered under health insurance, which keeps rehab clinics and detox centers open for business.
That’s all.
What goes on inside Alcohol and addictions inpatient centers? About 3 days of detox, if neccessary, and then it’s a simple series of 12 step meetings, with some antidepressents thrown in from time to time. Then at night, the clients often pile in the van and go to yet more 12-step meetings around the community.
Not much ‘value-added’ over and above AA, in my opinion. And not very medical or scientific, at all.
Hellllloooooooo??? can we get a MOD in here? I have never in TWO FUCKING years seen such a train wreck of hijacks!
You people are all fucking crazy. (no smilies here I am totally disgusted)
Guin, get a lock for your damned door.
(and if you dont want people calling your sweet sis a ‘cock tease’ you might not want to refer to her as a cunt and a nasty snatch - it certainly gave me the image of a really really promiscous mean, evil, slut! If that wasnt an accurate portrayal of your sister, you cant blame those who read the words)
And a sticking point, You CAN move out, you CHOOSE not too. You like the house, the yard, they cook for you, having your pets, etc… you CHOOSE to live there. If you have to move out there would be sacrifices you arent willing to make. Nobody suggested you rent a 3 bedroom penthouse! BUT renting a room in a strangers house would eliminate this terrible sister problem, at a reasonable cost to you. So dont tell me it cant be done, it can, you just PREFER to stay at home, its nicer, more comfy etc. There IS a difference between CANT and WONT.
Dont want to move out, fine. I wont fault you for it.
To the rest of you who suggest using violence on the sister, erasing her files and soiling her underwear to humiliate her - WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU? This isnt junior high! This is the SDMB! Show some brains for fucks sake!
Guin, your sister is obviously very unhappy, you dont have to be Freud to figure that out! As the mother of two kids, I can tell you what her problem is, she wants your attention and negative is better than none at all! Maybe she is jealous of you in some way, but probably just lonely and insecure. Take her to lunch, go to a movie with her.
Oh my god guin, life is SO short , and family is precious, dont hurt your sister, she needs you. Someday she might be all you have.
Mmm yes…it is a trainwreck of hijacks…fun isn’t it?
sigh I myself have certain problems that make moving out impossible right now or at least, very, very, hard. I did live on my own for a bit. In Oxford when I was 23 and I nearly had a nervous breakdown, I wasn’t ready for that and with my social skills and inability to make friends and the resulting isolation…it wasn’t a good idea for me.
Judging a person whose life you know nothing about…hmm that spells 100% STUPID to me!
And that remark about my mum treating me like a 5 year old? Well she does! And it drives me mad! I thought the BBQ Pit was for letting off steam? I love my Mum very much but my lack of independence and my parents’ overprotection of me depresses me very much…it is actually a very real problem in my life and trivialising it in that wonderous simplistic “Jump In the Swimming Pool and If You Drown It’s Your Own Fault” fashion is just…laughable.
My Mum will be the only person I have one day? Actually she is pretty much the only person I have now…I have no friends because of my problems, my parents are getting older, I’m terrified of being alone and I’m facing it the best I can…
Jeez just because I bitch about my Mum a bit dosen’t mean I’m about to murder her with a rusty breadknife for the insurance money! :rolleyes:
I think somebody’s projecting their own feelings about their life onto mine!-somebody’s got a kid and they don’t think the kid is grateful enough etc. Well I’m sorry but that has sod all to do with my life! Go see a counselor!
(if the last post had nothing to do with me then sorry for looking so daft, I only skimmed it lightly, so if it was directed at someone else ignore me okay?! Cool!)
Oh and Kellibelli? Fuck you. You know nothing about me and my circumstances. And I will say whatever I damn please about my own mother and you can orally pleasure my clitoris Bitch. Nyaah Nyaaaaaah!
This isn’t about separated twins. This is about the different correlation between fraternal twins as compared to identical twins. The only real difference between fraternal and identical twins is the amount of genetic material they share. Given a large sample size, all other differences are factored out.
This is a reliable and accepted technique for determining whther something is a genetic trait. You compare how likely fraternal twins are to be similar with respect to that trait to how likely identical twins are to be similar with respect to the same trait. I believe it’s the only widely accepted method to determine whether a trait is genetic or environmental.
If identical twins were more likely to have the same favorite color than fraternal twins, I don’t see how there could be any other explanation, assuming the difference was statistically significant.
Incidentally, last time I checked the DSM IV, pedophilia was listed as a disease, in the same book with bonafide mental illnesses like Schitzophrenia, Schitzoaffective disorder, Manic Depressive disorder, depression, etc. etc.
Does this mean that we need excuse the conduct of pedophiles as something they can’t help doing, as if it WERE a mental illness?
Hell, no. It’s just included to lend a veneer of medical science to its treatment so insurance companies will keep writing the checks.
Why is it so difficult to understand that the same decision was made with regard to alcoholism?
Hi again…I’m actually not reading this thread anymore so I don’t know if anyone has defended me or even mentioned me again…(if anyone has come in on my side…thankyou!)
But if the fact that I expressed frustration with my Mum and our relationship, that does not mean that I am some ungrateful brat who goes out partying all night with my six million friends and comes back to a haggard saint all of whose hard work is for naught blah blah blah.
I have no damn friends because of my problems and my parents’ ridiculous overprotectiveness and their inability to relate to me as an adult isn’t helping me get any! Honestly I don’t relate to this notion that you must never criticise your mother etc. It is like when I used to watch the Jerry Springer Show and there would be tales of mothers doing awful things and if the kids defended themselves at all some harridan would screech about ‘respecting your mom’
So someone is your mother? That means they are immune to criticism for all time? That means they don’t have to earn respect like anyone else? Give me a break! This “She’s given birth to you so you must worship her as a goddess” crap is just stupid and illogical.
That ignorant bilge that Kellibelli spewed is particularly hilarious because I am incredibly close to my parents-far closer than anyone I’ve talked to online is, all of my online aquaintances seem totally estranged from their parents and seem to have very animosity-filled relationships with them. I’m close to my parents in a way that not many people can understand I have been surprised to learn. Because they have literally been the only people there for my whole life because of my inability to make friends etc.
So if I blow off some steam by expressing some frustration about my Mum, pardon me if I laugh myself sick when some poor deluded sap who has never met either of us and knows nothing of our lives or history starts raving about this and that…Jeeez.
Yep that’s what I think and if you don’t like that well you can eat my shit with a side order of salad and a sausage on a stick and a nice little pink umbrella stuck in it.
I won’t be contributing to this thread anymore after this post.
Now back to your regularly scheduled ‘Carnival of Hijacks’ (special Trainwreck edition)
