I’m not sure what you are talking about. I’ve never been in a relationship shorter than two years long and any unhappiness I may have experienced in these is the old-fashioned sort.
I’m sorry, this is what I recalled from an earlier pit thread about your life. If it was inaccurate, then I apologize. But I still don’t agree that bars or alcohol particularly are the best way to meet people. If you go to a bar because other singles are there, fine, and I’m not someone that will object to anyone partaking in a few drinks, but I still feel that depending on alcohol to make a connection is pretty silly.
I just don’t understand this bizarre schizoid attitude where one’s afraid of being gossipped about by coworkers because men are looking at you, but people will go to bars so that they can “lose control” and do things they wouldn’t do while sober.
I say, ditch the alcohol, find out what you really want to do, and do it. Coworkers be damned. Is it really still such an impossible burden in this nation to admit to being single and interested in the opposite sex to your peers? Don’t use alcohol as an excuse or crutch to behave differently.
I fail to see how suggesting having a social drink together to break the ice and relax automatically equates to getting a chick drunk so you can date-rape her.
I don’t think that a social drink together is a problem, but even sven’s and others suggestions struck me as way more than a social drink. It was more of a, “get her, yourself, or both so drunk that you act in a manner that you never would come close to approaching sober.” I think that I said as much in my last post.
I think that Wesley Clark has more to gain by learning to interact in a comfortable manner with women in all aspects of his life, from at work, to bars, even at libraries. I don’t see any reason why two single people shouldn’t be able to meet at the library, so I’m advising him to try to shortcut this whole learning curve by just going and getting trashed. I suspect that he’ll ultimately be happier if he develops mature relationships with women although I don’t doubt that he could go out and get laid with enough evenings at enough bars.
I’m going to agree with the posters who’ve said that the best way is to think about it less and focus on other things. I think **AFG **had some very good points.
My suggestion would be to get involved in things at school. Find a group/organization/club that you’re interested in - try something new even - and join it. First, you’ll be doing something different and fun and hopefully thinking/worrying less about all of this, and second, you’ll meet a whole new group of people. It should also give you a chance to interact with any women that are involved in the group on a friends level. Don’t immediately start looking for potential dates. Just relax, have fun, and as you get to know the people from the group, ifyou really hit it off with one of the women and find that you have lots in common, that’s great. Go for it THEN, after you’ve gotten to know her and know that you have a bunch in common.
Wes, this post is wonderful advice. I suggest you heed it.
As far as liking your analytical personality, that’s cool, and I’m sure it serves you well in many applications. But in this case, it’s probably inhibiting you and helping cause the problems you are trying to overcome.
Wesley, I had already noticed a change in your posts over the last year. Good for you!
The first thing that I thought of was the group therapy that you have already mentioned. Then it occured to me that you haven’t mentioned having women friends – actual pals where there is no thought of a romance developing. Do you have female friends? If not, that would be a really good place to start.
As you probably know, my problems with mental illness were at full tilt when I was in college. Not as much was known about depression back then and I just labelled myself crazy and thought of myself as weak. That was a terrible burden to carry around. Don’t carry that around as your identity. And don’t blame yourself for the police interrogation either. That was someone else’s poor judgment.
Don’t make assumptions about other people’s motives. You just have to live with the uncertainty of not knowing why people respond in certain ways. And since we can’t know, don’t assume the worst.
Bloomington is one cool place. I would think that the university would offer all sorts of interesting organizations where you can persue your real interests and where there will be females involved. If you are interested in political activism, there are always neat women in these organizations that make great friends.
Maybe I phrased my reply in an exaggerated way without the requisite smiley to indicate irony. I wasn’t talking of getting women legless before exploiting their often lower tolerance of alcohol, more having some drinks, having a laugh, and finding it easier to get to the point of ‘breaking the ice’ of physical intimacy for the first time with someone - kissing, dancing, etc. It’s not like you can’t have many days, months or years of relatively sober interaction after that. This talk of alcohol as a ‘crutch’ seems a bit overblown, suggesting a joyless choice of full-blown alcoholism or strict temperance.
Having said that, the bar option might not be best for someone with a history of mental illness, especially if medication is in use, what with containdications and whatnot.
First of all, let me give you a link to an organization where you can meet intelligent, interesting women who think analytical, intelligent men eminently datable, not to mention other things. Here’s a link to [http://centralindiana.us.mensa.org/]Mensa for your area. I know a few people from there, including the woman who heads the organization (she beat me at a dice game on Sunday! 
) and they’re a good bunch of people. It’s where I met the gentleman I’ve been dating for some time now and we’ve produced several romances and a few marriages, as well as some very good friendships. When I took up with my local mob, I found the very qualities I felt worked against me in meeting men actually worked for me. Basically, the people I’ve met in Mensa think intelligence and geekiness is attractive and a certain degree of neuroticness is expected and not something which counts against one.
Here’s some more advice from a former social troglodyte. Take it easy. I think of myself as less attractive than I apparently am. If a fellow I’d never met came up to me out of the blue and asked me out, I’d wonder what he was up to. I don’t think my looks alone are enough to attract a guy and I’m not interested in sex purely for the sake of sex. There are a lot of messages being sent to the women about how dangerous dating can be, what with date rape, etc. We are told fairly constantly by both the media and even this message board things like “Meet in a public place the first time,” “Never lose track of your drink lest someone put something in it,” etc. We’re told casual friends and acquaintances may be untrustworthy, let alone some guy we barely know who’s asking us out. I’d say I don’t let myself buy into that; nevertheless, I actually have followed the first one a few times, simply because if something does go wrong, I don’t want people to call me an “idiot” or a “fool”. Also, I don’t want to be dated for my body or my smile; I want to go on a date because the man I’m with enjoys my company and finds me interesting. How will I know if you find me interesting or I’ll find you interesting if we’ve barely spoken?
Look, I promise you all women aren’t evil bitches who are out to break your heart and ruin your self-esteem, just as all men aren’t evil bastards who were out to convince me of how unattractive I am, despite some early experiences. Even before I got involved with someone, I didn’t go to bars because I wasn’t what the men there were looking for and I was pretty sure they weren’t what I was looking for. I figured if I did, I’d just wind up hurt, humiliated, and lonely. Instead, I did the stuff I found interesting, including going to science fiction conventions which led to taking up with Mensa and found myself a bunch of people who found me attractive and who I found attractive. A couple of weeks ago, at the local SF con, a fellow came up to me and said he’d given me his number a couple of years ago and was wondering if I were available. I wasn’t, but if I had been, I might have taken him up on it.
It’s old and trite advice, but it does work in my experience, but it does work. Do things which look interesting to you and you may well find women who are also interesting and who are even interested in you. Also, since some of us have just as little self-esteem as you guys and for similar reason, get to know us a bit before putting the moves on. It’ll go a long way to convincing us that you are someone who could be a fun date, rather than some jerk who’s just out for what ever he can get. Oh, and do try Mensa. I’m serious.
CJ
:Sigh: typical Mensan – I changed the website I was linking to and screwed up the coding.
Let me give you one more piece of advice. If you’re asking out more than one woman in the same location during the same evening, don’t get caught! You see, I’m not interested in being asked out by a guy who’s considering one more number on the list of women he’s been rejected or accepted by. I’m interested in being asked out by a guy who’s interested in me, Siege, human being. I’m not a number; I’m not some random chick in a bar or at an SF con. I’m a human being who enjoys good, fun company, and who’s a little uncertain of herself and who can’t always figure out why a guy’s interested in me. Give me a reason why you are. Don’t leave me with a couple of lines from a Billy Joel song running through my head, “So ask me just one question when this magic night is through. Could it have been just anyone or did it have to be you?”
Siege
Not just woman; human being.
Wesley, can you tell us more about how you ask women out? You mentioned email at one point, and I get the impression you might be asking women out on a big dinner-and-movie date without really getting to know them first. What do you usually say? What kind of “date” do you suggest?
A bit of advice - hang out with your female friends more, or if necessary, make female friends and hang out with them. I’m talking about women you’re not attracted to, or who are off the market. Enjoy their company, and you’ll lose your neuroses about women in general and have a good time.
These new female friends might have hot friends to introduce you to, and can probably spot women who aren’t interested in you far better than you can and give you a heads-up.
Kunilou and DVsickgirlDV had good posts - go back and reread them.
From what I’m reading, Wesley, you give off a creepy vibe. No matter how nice you are, no matter what you look like, you’re giving it off and women will notice. Again, from what I’m reading, it’s no wonder you get turned down. If a woman smiles at you, it does not mean she’s interested. Nor does it mean that she’s from your hometown and knows your history and is laughing at you. It means that she’s probably being friendly. That’s all.
How are you asking these women out? I agree with many other posters - if it’s just out of the blue, it’s no wonder you’re getting turned down. You need to make an attempt at a conversation, at getting to know her, before asking her out. And if she says no, it’s not because she knows anything at all about your history. It just means that she’s not interested in pursuing a relationship with you.
Like others have said, just quit worrying about it. Go out with friends just to have fun. Maybe join a club or take up a hobby you’re interested in. Start treating yourself well. The women will follow.
I don’t. I don’t think people can tell any of that stuff about me just by looking at me or talking to me. I’ve had close friends become shocked when I told them some of that stuff. So I don’t give off vibes or anything.
In retrospect I already know what I need to do to solve this dilemma so I don’t know if I’ll use/need the advice given here. The solution is just to talk to/approach women w/o asking them out unless they are really into me (which only happens 15% of the time or so). I have done this before and I don’t get alienated, and neither do they.
Just the last few days I’ve approached 2 women and there was no alienation, plus I’m building up my social skills by approaching strangers & learning how to carry on a conversation.
Damn. I tried to not come across as whiny but even I think that showed itself.
You’re full of it & I don’t know where to begin. I regret posting personal info on SD and have tried to avoid doing it for the last year, I know it was a bad idea to make this post but I did it anyway.
You can’t tell crap about my day to day interpersonal life because I write something online to vent every once in a while. You think you can but I know you can’t.
I’ve never really understood the ‘good superficial social skills = non threat’ mentality myself. I don’t have great social skills but nothing like I bet some people here think I have.
Dude, I have to agree with him. If someone asked me out just because I smiled at him, I would be freaked out. You’ve been given advice for talking to women etc for at least the past year and a lot of it seems to be completely unheeded (join a club or activity and make friends with women there, for instance).
And you do honestly sound like you think of women as this weird “other” instead of us chicks just being people.
And if you’re offended at what Snickers inferred about your life, well, try going back and reading your OP (and maybe the other threads you’ve started about women) and see why he might come to that conclusion.
People you’ve met only briefly, like in a library or a class, don’t know anything about your day-to-day interpersonal life either, and they’ll have only scant clues to infer it. Just some food for thought.
Dude, really, no offense - all I’ve got to go on is what you wrote in the OP. And some of the details I read came off as strange to me.
[quote=Wesley Clark]
…I was in a class in fall semester of 2002 and I saw a girl smiling at me. Sooooooooo I figure there is no way in hell this could backfire so I develop a crush on her. At the same time another woman (quite attractive at that) actually was attracted to me. I’ll call the smiling girl girl A and the girl that actually liked me girl B. I had thoughts of going up to girl A and asking for her number but luckily never actually did it. I found out soon that she was from my hometown and this would’ve been a repeat of the situation above, with endless laughter about me…[\quote]
These are strange to me - I don’t get them. There’s not enough detail here for me to tell anything. From the what you’ve given me, it seems like a girl smiles at you, so you ask her out. Which would definitely come across as creepy to me. And again, from what you’ve written, you seem preoccupied with your past and people either already knowing about it or finding out about it later. Which again, is weird and offputting.
You’re absolutely right - I don’t know you from Adam. And good on ya for doing your best to be a good person and rise above whatever demons you have in your past - it’s something we all should strive to do. But all I’ve got to go on is what you’ve written, which comes across to me as weird and strange. I’m probably misunderstanding. However, don’t come to a message board asking for advice and then jump down people’s throats when they give you advice you don’t like.
DVsickgirlDV had the most brutal response, and probably the most helpful.
My own experience with depression (3+ years) was that it made me incredibly self-absorbed. I’ve always been analytical and introverted, but that sent me over the edge into full-blown navel-gazing. Depression is a selfish disease.
My solution, and part of my cure (in addition to therapy and drugs), was to volunteer. I am or have been involved in the local Human Society, a childhood literacy program, and a horse therapy program. I also joined my local ballroom dancing club (you don’t have to think of things to say while you’re dancing, but you can still get to know someone) and a hiking group. I met my boyfriend through the dance club. He “asked me out” by inviting me to a Bad Movie Night at a friend’s house, then next on a bike ride.
From your posting history, you are very focused on yourself and your body. It is a good thing that you are self-aware and analytical, but I think that you are letting that get in the way of having fun.
As someone who’s had depression get in my way with other people as well, I’d say you have a point, but I’d question whether depression is “a selfish disease.” Yes, it feeds on a person’s psyche to keep itself alive, but it’s too easy a leap from there to saying that depressed people are selfish, luxuriating, wallowing, or “asking for it.”
Selfishness is something deserving of contempt. Do you have contempt for your depression, or your depressed self? First one, fine; second one, very VERY bad.
I guess I’m asking because you expressed admiration for DVsickgirl’s “brutal” response. (Yeah, sometimes the truth hurts. But don’t assume that the worse it hurts, the better it is for us.)
I haven’t been depressed in over 2 years, but what I meant was that (IME, of course) depression turns a person’s focus inward, toward themselves. I didn’t mean selfish in the sense of a todler screaming “mine!” Infer what you will, but no contempt was meant, towards myself or Wesley.
I meant that depression shrinks your world to the size of your skull, and thus your behavior can come across as selfish: for example, Wesley is taking rejection by women very personally. He is convinced that he is “alienating” women and wants to know how to stop, leading continuity eror and kyla to accuse him of selfishly wanting a woman, any woman, without appreciating them as individuals.
Other posters have pointed out, more gently, that Wesley should focus less on his approach to women (inward focus) than finding out what type of woman he would be compatible and looking for her (outward focus).