I Pit Men Who Think Working Women Are There to Service Their Sex Drive

[Roderick_Femm]

@YogSosoth

I can’t speak for other people but if a guy did that to me, I wouldn’t think anything of it. Weird, but totally innocent. I’d probably say something like “that’s a weird handshake you have there” but that’s all

It is a well-known sub-rosa sexual signal for gay interest, from the days when most gays were in the closet. If some customer did that to me I would jerk my hand away and ask him what the hell he thought he was doing (not that it’s likely at my age). (When I say well-known, I mean well-known among gay men of a certain age, so maybe not to the poster who brought it up).

[QUOTE=even sven]
Sorry, we are the only ones who get to decide what sexual advances we enjoy or dislike, and we are the only ones who get to decide what we feel about any given unwanted advance.
[/QUOTE]
I agree with this 100%, and that it applies to every single person, including men.
Roddy

[DianaG]

@YogSosoth

Somehow I get the impression you don’t have my best interests in mind…:dubious:

So then you *do *understand that people might find it peculiar and untoward.

[Bricker]

@even_sven

Sorry, we are the only ones who get to decide what sexual advances we enjoy or dislike, and we are the only ones who get to decide what we feel about any given unwanted advance.

True.

But if you post on a message board seeking validation of those feelings, then you risk others’ comments on those feelings. And each person posting comments ALSO has the right to decide what his comments should be.

Correct?

[Chessic_Sense]

@YogSosoth

I can’t speak for other people but if a guy did that to me, I wouldn’t think anything of it. Weird, but totally innocent. I’d probably say something like “that’s a weird handshake you have there” but that’s all

Am I the only one that thinks this signal is well-known for “I’m gay, are you?” I learned this in, like, 6th grade on the playground. Was my elementary class just an odd exception?

@even_sven

Pious and boring as it is, I’m sick of the SDMB creep apologist squad. There have been multiple threads where a woman has recounted a situation where she feels sexually uncomfortable or threatened, and there is always a chorus of people trying to turn that problem on her- either she didn’t react right (the toned down version of “If you were raped, why didn’t you fight harder?”), or that she is overreacting (“You had to shower three times???”) or that she must have somehow invited it or at least had some way to prevent it (“Why didn’t you get your manager?”)

I remember the last clusterfuck, where boatloads of guys came on to say that women never have a “spidey-sense” and shouldn’t rely on it, and “creeps” are probably just nice sweet guys with good intentions. I’m waiting for the old chestnut about how “creeps are just guys who hit on you that you are not attracted to”, and about how it is just sooooooo unfair that women enjoy advances from men they find attractive and are repulsed by advances from men they find repulsive. The solution, of course, is that women shouldn’t be sexually uncomfortable because they probably just don’t understand that the guy is a sweet guy who happens to be socially awkward, and it’s probably your fault for being shallow. Unless, of course, you end up attacked. Then it’s your fault for letting it get so far.

Sorry, we are the only ones who get to decide what sexual advances we enjoy or dislike, and we are the only ones who get to decide what we feel about any given unwanted advance.

Just as I said. even sven wants to pick a fight, and no one has stepped into the ring, so she’s beating up the little strawman she’s constructed. No one’s even close to saying what she wants them to say, so now she’s just “waiting for the old chestnut,” i.e. putting words in people’s mouths. No one in this thread is defending the creep or even attacking Broomstick for anything other than her offense at the thread, and yet sven still is dead set on “remember[ing] the last clusterfuck”. She’ll twist words like “Why didn’t you get your manager?” into “she must have somehow invited it” just to have someone to fight with.

Show us, sven, where anybody said anything like what you’re accusing them of. Quote posts. From this thread. Do it or quit picking a fight and STFU.

@Kimstu

Grammar Nazi nitpick: Actually, nobody in this thread has been an apologist for this creep (i.e., someone who attempts to defend or excuse his behavior).

However, some posters have in fact sort of apologized for him and his indefensible assholery (e.g., mhendo, Bob Ducca and Inigo Montoya back on page 1).

Two closely related words that don’t mean quite the same thing. [/GNN]

Oooooohhhh. Nice.

[Myrnalene]

@Bricker

True.

But if you post on a message board seeking validation of those feelings, then you risk others’ comments on those feelings. And each person posting comments ALSO has the right to decide what his comments should be.

Correct?

And the first commenter has the right to decide how to respond to the later commenters and then other commenters have the right to respond to those comments and then other people happening by have the right to decide to make stupid jokes and then some pedantic asshole comes along and has the right to post a comment like yours and then we all fall down the rabbit hole because what even is the point of this comment, Bricker?

Everyone has a right to comment what they please (within the rules of the forum), and everyone has a right to read those comments and say, “Wow. You’re a dick.” Thanks for explaining the conventions of message board conversation though, we had no idea!

[Broomstick]

@YogSosoth

I can’t speak for other people but if a guy did that to me, I wouldn’t think anything of it. Weird, but totally innocent. I’d probably say something like “that’s a weird handshake you have there” but that’s all

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Try it out! I’m serious. Shake a stranger’s hand, and while you do, curl your middle finger inward, so that you can use it to caress the stranger’s palm. For maximum giggles, do it to some guy who’s a lot bigger than you.

@DiosaBellissima

Make sure you also stare them directly in the eye as you do this. As intense as possible.

And prolong the handshake/hand holding about twice as long as usual… and use a fixed smile that doesn’t reach your eyes…

My apologies, LHofD, for some reason I didn’t realize you were male. Of course, men are occasionally also recipients of harassment and creeper attention even if not as often as women are.

[Broomstick]

@Roderick_Femm

It is a well-known sub-rosa sexual signal for gay interest, from the days when most gays were in the closet. If some customer did that to me I would jerk my hand away and ask him what the hell he thought he was doing (not that it’s likely at my age). (When I say well-known, I mean well-known among gay men of a certain age, so maybe not to the poster who brought it up).

Really? I did not know that. Then again, why would I know about signals sent between closeted male homosexuals?

It does leave me puzzled the number of times men have done that handshake to me, as I am very obviously not a man if you look at me. It’s incredibly creepy when some old geezer starts caressing my palm like he’s doing me a favor by it.

[Drunky_Smurf]

@mhendo

Me neither.

Also, unless there’s something particularly jarring or unlikely in a post,** i tend to take people at their word about their personal experiences around here**. If we don’t do that, the whole model of online discourse becomes pretty much untenable.

bolding mine.

I fucked a tree once. I thought I’d go the safe route and do a maple tree because I thought the maple syrup would act like lube but it really didn’t.

[TriPolar]

@Drunky_Smurf

bolding mine.

I fucked a tree once. I thought I’d go the safe route and do a maple tree because I thought the maple syrup would act like lube but it really didn’t.

Try a slippery elm.

[GrandWino]

@Drunky_Smurf

bolding mine.

I fucked a tree once. I thought I’d go the safe route and do a maple tree because I thought the maple syrup would act like lube but it really didn’t.

That explains Weeping Willows.

[Procrustus]

@Drunky_Smurf

bolding mine.

I fucked a tree once. I thought I’d go the safe route and do a maple tree because I thought the maple syrup would act like lube but it really didn’t.

Other species are more poplar.

[Chronos]

I just want to post to say that I don’t think that Broomstick overreacted. My first thought on reading the OP was to ponder ways to hide a tack in the sole of a shoe such that it wouldn’t poke through until the wearer put his full weight on it. On realizing the impracticality of this, my second thought was that she should have called the police. It was perfectly correct and reasonable for her to feel threatened by this creep, and it’s quite appropriate to call the police about someone who’s making you feel threatened like that.

[kaylasdad99]

@Chronos

I just want to post to say that I don’t think that Broomstick overreacted. My first thought on reading the OP was to ponder ways to hide a tack in the sole of a shoe such that it wouldn’t poke through until the wearer put his full weight on it.

I considered suggesting something of that nature as well, but a moment’s reflection made me realize that the creep would just use that as an excuse to return to the store.

[even_sven]

Le’ts do this systematically. I’m leaving quotes whole, so I don’t get accused of cherry picking.

Standard responses to a person who has been sexually harassed or assulated:

1. It didn’t happen
2. You are probably misinterpreting what happened, he’s probably just a socially awkward guy trying to be friendly
3. You are overreacting
4. You must have done something to invite that. Thus, this is your fault.
5. You did not do a good enough job stopping it, you should have done XYZ. Thus, this is your fault
6. Anyway, you should just suck it up. This is what you get for doing your job/dressing like that/being female in public
7. It’s not women who have the problem, it’s men who have the problem

@Malacandra

Want some cheese with that?

3. You are overreacting

@Bricker

I don’t know if the Pit is the best choice for a posting that expects supporting and comforting responses.

And while I’m here, all joking aside, I guess I’m a little confused about why this upset you so much. Yes, it’s clear the man has no social skills and no real sense of propriety. And I understand that those are danger signs that you’d be foolish to simply forget.

But at the same time, what I hear you relating is not, as I think about it, fearsome or threatening contact. It’s simply boorish and rude.

I know that as a man, I’m not a target of this kind of attention as a general rule. But I am honestly not seeing the justification for the literal naseous reaction you had.

3. You are overreacting

@Bosstone

Except that’s not what Broomstick said in the OP.

There’s a whole range of possible responses that can be described that way, anything from skeevy but mild to genuinely threatening.

I’ll admit I interpreted it as a more mild attempt to continue flirting, which is still not cool, but not on the level of yelling or berating.

2. You are probably misinterpreting what happened, he’s probably just a socially awkward guy trying to be friendly
3. You are overreacting

@Bosstone

It could easily be tone-deaf..

2. You are probably misinterpreting what happened, he’s probably just a socially awkward guy trying to be friendly

@Bob Ducca

We’re sorry.

2. You are probably misinterpreting what happened, he’s probably just a socially awkward guy trying to be friendly
3. You are overreacting

@LurkerInNJ

Is this your first time working with the public? If so, accept that a certain percentage of the public is anywhere from clueless to outright mentally ill and don’t get yourself worked up about it. He was a total ass, but by this stage of his life, nothing is going to rectify that.

Hand the jerk his shoes, say thanks for using Cobblers Inc. and be deaf and mute as far as he is concerned from that instant on. No need to respond further to him or his inappropriate demands.

4. You must have done something to invite that. Thus, this is your fault.
5. You did not do a good enough job stopping it, you should have done XYZ. Thus, this is your fault
6. Anyway, you should just suck it up. This is what you get for doing your job/dressing like that/being female in public

(Of course, LurkerInNJ is a for model- how could I forget- so her words have extra weight to them)

@YogSosoth

The only way the guy’s 2nd visit would have some creepiness mitigated is if he just happened to be in the same mall and decided to drop by on a lark.

2. You are probably misinterpreting what happened, he’s probably just a socially awkward guy trying to be friendly
3. You are overreacting

@Dave_Hartwick

I understand that sexual harassment is a bad thing.

I also understand people taking Broomstick’s posts with a grain or more of salt.

1. It didn’t happen

@Steophan

Needing to take a multitude of showers because someone hit on her is fucking nuts.

3. You are overreacting

@Princhester

I understand that having the misfortune to run across someone like this is bad, but really your title reads as if this particular type of guy is common or at least some sort of noteworthy minority. He sounds to me though like a nutter, not a wannabe smoothie. Anyone who gets turned down and comes back the next morning to ask why you haven’t called isn’t just your regular insensitive pickup artist. He’s a fruitcake.

I worked in retail a long time ago. Retail is a magnet for lonely slightly mentally ill people who have discovered that sales assistants etc can be talked at and can’t run away and have to maintain a facade of politeness. I don’t mean this as criticism but as a simple statement of fact that if you get nauseous and can’t sleep from anger after an encounter with someone like this, rather than being able to blow him off as a random irrelevancy, you are going to have a tough time in retail.

6. Anyway, you should just suck it up. This is what you get for doing your job/dressing like that/being female in public

@LurkerInNJ

If it was threatening then why did you give him your attention and tell him about your marital status and listen to him while he talked? You could have have stared over his shoulder with a disinterested look and cut him off with a quick “I need to get back to work. Have you made a decision about your sandals?” If he keeps going on, you walk away. There is no need to engage these people in a discussion, and their talking AT you is their idea of a conversation.

He came back? A simple flat “We’re done here Sir” with no face or eye contact the second he opens his mouth and walk away.

4. You must have done something to invite that. Thus, this is your fault.
5. You did not do a good enough job stopping it, you should have done XYZ. Thus, this is your fault
6. Anyway, you should just suck it up. This is what you get for doing your job/dressing like that/being female in public

@blindboyard

I would have just assumed he was a Freemason.

I’m still not seeing the threat. Fine, he’s bigger than you and acting like an idiot, but he also left when asked. Only if you’re just assuming that all men are an imminent threat because they’re bigger than you does this seem threatening.

Don’t worry so much about your safety. Women are victims of only a minority of violent crime, no matter how tiny they might perceive themselves to be.

3. You are overreacting
4. It’s not women who have the problem, it’s men who have the problem

@palacheck

This thread is certainly sexist. Against men.

By the way, it’s usually wiser to wait for some actual overt sexism on the part of the male dopers before the usual crew of crusaders begin waging war.

7. It’s not women who have the problem, it’s men who have the problem

@Steophan

The “shit that happened” is that someone talked to you.

Claiming it is anything more is fucking offensive to people who have actually been sexually abused, to people who have seen the damage to their loved ones caused by sexual abuse, and by the vast majority of men you are tarring with the same brush as rapists and abusers.

Sure, he shouldn’t have made you feel uncomfortable, and he was an arsehole for doing it. There’s nothing in your story that rises to the level of threatening for any reasonable person, though, especially as you’ve now said that he wasn’t propositioning you the second day.

3. You are overreacting
4. Anyway, you should just suck it up. This is what you get for doing your job/dressing like that/being female in public
5. It’s not women who have the problem, it’s men who have the problem

@Steophan

Interesting how you’ve not actually responded to anything I said.

It certainly doesn’t prove anything, but if your mischaracterisation of and overreaction to my post are anything to go by, that guy may well have done nothing wrong.

1. It didn’t happen

It wouldn’t be such a big deal if this was a one-off rection to a one-off story. But it’s part of a pattern that happens whenever any female doper posts a similar story. It’s also, coincidentally, the exact same bullshit that people give to rape victims and other women who have had been threatened or hurt in a sexual way. People will jump hoops trying to twist the scenario to find some possible way to interpret the guy as not being creepy.

I’m going to blame the Nice Guy syndrome. I think what we are seeing is guys who are resentful that women have preferences in their sexual partners, and may want to be with attractive, charming, outgoing men more than a weird socially awkward guy.

[billfish678]

You left out

8. OP didn’t tell the whole fucking story and the most important part of it from the get go.

[YogSothoth]

@Roderick_Femm

It is a well-known sub-rosa sexual signal for gay interest, from the days when most gays were in the closet. If some customer did that to me I would jerk my hand away and ask him what the hell he thought he was doing (not that it’s likely at my age). (When I say well-known, I mean well-known among gay men of a certain age, so maybe not to the poster who brought it up).

@Chessic_Sense

Am I the only one that thinks this signal is well-known for “I’m gay, are you?” I learned this in, like, 6th grade on the playground. Was my elementary class just an odd exception?

This is the first time I’ve heard about this. Guess I know now.

[Heart_of_Dorkness]

@billfish678

8. OP didn’t tell the whole fucking story and the most important part of it from the get go.

Which is what, exactly?

[even_sven]

@billfish678

You left out

8. OP didn’t tell the whole fucking story and the most important part of it from the get go.

I’m guess the OP figured that what she included was enough to convey why she was upset, without necessarily having to do a minute by minute blow by blow to be gone over with a fine toothed comb by the nitpick squad looking for any way at all to incorporate excuses 1-7 into their reaction. Indeed, the majority of people in this thread got her point and were immediately sympathetic.

Schoolyard bullies are good at saying just the right thing to get people on the defensive, knowing that once they on the defensive they will never win but will be fun to toy around with and will probably give the desired emotional reaction. Unfortunately, this happened with Broomstick and she played right into their hands trying to explain herself with explanations that would never live up to their demands.

[AqualungBats5th]

@Fenris

Oh shut up, you pious twit. You’re as stupid as you seem if you believe this, and if you don’t believe it but just wanted to launch into yet another boring “me! me! me!” diatribe, then stop flapping your yap here, and get a blog.

Since your post suggests that you have some sort of congenital brain defect, allow me to explain in teeny-tiny words: To whatever degree my post was funny, it’s funny because it’s a Simpsons quote and because Broomstick’s initial reaction (in post 8) to purely supportive posts was so over-the-top freaky bizarre. If you don’t want the guy who stalked you mocked (which is what she was reacting to in posts 2-7) and only want {{{{{huggles}}}}}, don’t fucking post in the Pit, post in MPSIMS where you’ll get people {{{hugging}}} you and posting ASCII art of kittens and flowers. Hell, even Broomstick seems to understand the miscommunication when she says "So, sorry if I offended someone who was trying to by sympathetic or came across as rude but I am fucking pissed as hell about this as well as scared and it doesn’t bring out the best in me. "–and I can understand the “I was freaked out and it doesn’t bring out the best in me” feeling perfectly.

But I’ll bet you DO you know this but you just want to lecture someone about your own shallow, boring opinions in your standard condescending tone.

I know you have a snarkboner for her and all, but don’t you already have a dumbfuck board to spooge this shit onto, you fucking simpleton?

Your joke wasn’t funny for exactly the reason she said. But it was also a poorly executed Simpsons reference. This board is already littered with that enough.

Also, how the fuck are doper jokes “purely supportive”? You think:

@SmithCommaJohn

Hey there. What time do you get off work?

@VinylTurnip

Huh. Cobbler is still a profession?

@billfish678

Maybe he thought you were a gobbler, not a cobbler? And you got handshake raped? And a word of advice. In this bad ecconomy the better you service your customers the better you’ll be able to weather this economic storm.

was supportive? Seriously? And sven is the idiot that needs to be spoken down to? That is the joke.

[GrandWino]

@even_sven

2. You are probably misinterpreting what happened, he’s probably just a socially awkward guy trying to be friendly
3. You are overreacting

Not surprisingly, you’re way off on your characterizations of my post. Probably the others as well.