And if I were the social worker, I’d be appalled at people getting into a pissing contest with someone they’ll never see again after next week, and for nonexistent stakes to boot. I’d consider it a plus that people were able to handle boastful jerks gracefully – i.e., by ignoring them. The victory fist woman is a troll, and as such should be starved of the attention she’s craving.
If I were the social worker, I’d have addressed it myself before letting it go on. This is absolutely insane.
Ah, but you see, she’s nonconfrontational too. It’s an epidemic.
Thank you. That was it.
(By the way, that was exactly our reaction. Our adoption wasn’t finalized until I was in my 8th month - at any time before that the social worker could have pulled the plug because of the pregnancy. And the whole pregnancy was marred by the impact the pregnancy and birth would have on our new son - six months is really not enough time to adjust before you have a sister thrust on you.)
This isn’t about the OPs infertility. This is about pregnancy not being a superior way to build a family, as Ms. Victory Fists behavior implies.
And that is what the complaint should be about. Not that its “insenstive to infertility” (though it is), but that its implying that breeders are somehow superior to adopters.
By complaining that the process needs to be “more sensitive to infertility” the facilitor has no way that what you are saying is “Ms. Victory Fist needs to put a sock in it, she is offending everyone in the room.” She probably thinks it means “I don’t like having to do this grief work over infertility.” Perhaps the complaint needs to be phrased “people who choose to build their families through adoption are not inferior to families who build their families through biology - and facilitators need to make sure that this attitude is displayed by themselves and all members of the group.”
By saying they are sensitive to infertility issues, they want to make sure you aren’t adopting as a second choice. Or because (with a bio kid fast on the heels of our adopted son, we hear this alot) adoption is a sure way to get pregnant. That you aren’t going to regret a family built by adoption. By not confronting her, you are doing exactly what is considered unhealthy - not standing up for your choice to build a family this way as a choice that is just as good (maybe it wasn’t your first choice - but I hope you believe its just as good a choice).
If someone started a pissing contest, that would indeed be inappropriate. But the idea that it’s somehow inappropriate to respond to an insult is simply ridiculous. Giving the proper response - such as the eminently civil one suggested by TVeblen earlier in the thread - is not a pissing match. Ignoring people who are insulting your potential child is certainly not “graceful” by any standard I’ve ever heard before - it’s letting your child be targeted by strangers because you don’t have the spine to respond yourself. Not a big deal when the child doesn’t exist yet, but it certainly bodes ill for the parents’ ability to handle the slings and arrows of life, particularly since there is still a certain degree of insensitivity (at very least) to adoption issues. This has nothing to do with “winning” or “losing”, as you seem to be suggesting - it has to do with standing up for your family.
Well, exactly. It’s an obscure question of honor here, over a potential insult to a potential child. The actual harm done to any actual child is nil. Furnishesq is, in effect, being asked to play the odds here. Which is better for his/her chances – a possibly messy confrontation with an attention-whoring woman, who almost certainly wouldn’t take her admonishment lying down, or keeping quiet about something that, fundamentally, matters very little? I’m making the bet here that course #2 is the safer one. YMMV, naturally. But the fact that the social worker herself seems to have gone the nonconfrontational route would lead me to believe that there’s safety in following her example.
And again, any social worker who denied a couple an adoption simply for speaking up when someone is being offensive, would probably be up for review. Taking said woman aside and saying, “I understand you are happy and we’re happy for you, but I just wanted you to know that some of your comments are very hurtful to the rest of us,” is a pissing match?
Bitch, puuulllleeeese.
See, that’s the main difference here. I think her not speaking up does harm. I think that there are thousands of adoptive kids who hear insensitive comments because no one has spoken up and told people that they are insensitive. When you are five and “you were adopted” is a playground taunt, it does do actual harm. What everyone in that room is doing is condoning Ms. Victory Fist’s bigotry. Its the same as not speaking up when someone makes a racist comment. But I admit that as an adoptive parent I am sensative to this issue.
Furthermore, the confrontation doesn’t have to be with the woman. The confrontation could be with the facilitator, and doesn’t have to address infertility, but instead the woman’s attitude that breeding somehow makes her superior to people who adopt. And if the facilitator doesn’t take action, with the facilitator’s supervisor. And it probably doesn’t need to be done alone, during a break the rest of the couples could probably be convinced to present a united front on this issue - it isn’t like something like this isn’t bothering everyone - just that everyone is too intimidated by the process to stand up to it.
Oh, and as to Furnishesq’s odds, they are 99% if no complaint is made and 98.9% if it is. People worry too damn much about the homestudy and workshop process, but they don’t turn people down for this shit. They turn them down for having felonies and living in homes where they don’t bother to pick up the cat droppings before the social worker comes to visit. Since most people clean behind the fridge (I did, the social worker wasn’t even interested in touring the house, much less checking to make sure I had dusted the top of the windowsill). Frankly, if Dan Savage can pass a homestudy after admitting he picked up his boyfriend Terry in a men’s room and writing graphic sex advice columns - I’m not sure why people worry so much.
But wait a minute, if a couple is adopting because of infertility issues, doesn’t that suggest that adopting is a second choice? After all, if adopting were the first choice, they wouldn’t even have discovered the infertility.
I stated that awkwardly.
Most people (not all) come to adoption as a second choice. By the time the baby arrives, the idea is that you wouldn’t have it any other way. It may have been your second choice originally, but its amazing that the stork just happened to drop off your baby in the Ukraine by mistake.
I know a lot of adoptive parents, none of them who didn’t try for (and sometimes have) bio kids first, and all of them have come around to this. It probably doesn’t make sense if you haven’t adopted.
I’ve heard of a few cases where the couple doesn’t come around to this, and its never a happy ending for either the parents or the child. That is what the process is supposed to keep encourage, its supposed to bring you down the path to “this is right - it may have not been what we set out to do - but its right.” Ms. Victory Fist is endangering that part of the process for everyone in this group. Which is another thing I find highly disturbing about this story.
Actually, in all fairness to furnishsq and Sal Ammoniac, my parents would have done the same thing. They’re very big on not making waves and picking one’s battles. On the other hand, I’m with Dangerosa. If a quiet, specific word to the instructor didn’t work, I’d try to have a talk with the pregnant woman herself. Another option would be to compare notes with other people in the class, see how they felt, and, if others were offended, approach the instructor as a group.
CJ
I think the reason you haven’t gotten a response is because that statement is a little vague. The leader probably read it, thought “but I’m not doing anything insensitive” and moved on. Don’t expect them to read between the lines! Be specific! Say, “another class member has been constantly mentioning her new pregnancy and while we are happy for her, her little victory-fist-pump and repeated references are causing those of us struggling with infertility some discomfort. Since we don’t want to be rude to her, we’d appreciate it if the leader could privately suggest to her that she tone down her jubilation.”
And I don’t think it would jeopardize your chances at adoption if, the next time she does the victory fist, you blurt out “come on, enough already!” as if it escaped your mouth totally involuntarily, and then apologize for your outburst. You don’t have to try to make a nice speech about insensitivity…just a human reaction that gets to the point!
I think this is very well-said. And I say that even though I haven’t adopted (although I have been to informational meetings and would adopt tomorrow if MrValley was willing to have more kids).
With no disrespect meant to the OP’s pain regarding the infertility issue (which must be awful), I just can’t imagine why the facilitator isn’t addressing this issue with Fist Woman.
But you’re assuming that unwillingness to confront a person means you agree with them. From the looks of things in this thread, just about everybody would find this woman to be completely off base, if not altogether off her rocker. Does confronting this woman change her attitude, or the attitude of anyone else in the room? I doubt it. It may make the confronter feel better, but in terms of effecting a change, I just don’t see it. Someone like Ms. Victory Fist I imagine is pretty impervious to criticism. I bet if she were attacked, she would loudly counterattack, and accuse furnishesq of insensitivity. What’s the good in that?
I hold people who are silent while racist/homophobic/or other bigoted comments are made around them only slightly less guilty than the people who made the comments to start with - even if they don’t agree. Holding silent gives the bigot the impression that you agree, or at least that you don’t mind.
oh for crying out loud- you’re saying I’m as guilty as she is because I don’t say anything? :smack: that is the most ridiculous thing I have heard, other than those who have said my spouse and I wouldn’t be good parents b/c we didn’t say anything. when someone is as ridiculous as this woman has been, continuously, you know she knows what she’s doing - so more likely than not, she would not react kindly and it would be a pissing match - and something I am not going to start to wreck any chances of being able to adopt.
plus, you are comparing apples with oranges. she is not necessarily saying something “bad” such as a racist or bigoted remark, which, when I would respond (notice I said when b/c I would not keep my mouth shut on such an issue), there would be no issue re my response b/c it’s obvious what she said is in the wrong. here, however, is an insensitive remark on a normally happy issue. much different scenario. :dubious:
Unless someone is trolling: then they want you to disagree so that they can have a chance to spew out their entire bigoted spiel, wallowing in the joy of “proving” to you how right they are and how wrong you are, and so that later on they can recount a twisted, Chickesque version of the story to their friends that involves you sitting there, dumbfounded, while a brilliant, eloquent bigot “tells it like it is”, transforming you to their side.
I have no obligation to be an audience to horrific views. I will, and have, leave. But if it is someone I deem beyond redemption, I won’t give them an invitation to speak.
You want to sit and ignore this because it will go away and because ignoring it is the low risk option. But it won’t go away - this is your life now - your child’s life now. One where you will hear insensitive comments - and downright bigoted ones. And it really doesn’t matter what the intent is - bigotry or just idiotcy, the hurt for your child will be the same. Its bad enough that your kid will figure out his birthmom “didn’t want him.” But when he figures out that you’d have rather gotten pregnant - because insensitive bitches like this infer that with every word they utter about their pregnancy and how lucky they are to have gotten pregnant and have bio kids, he’ll really feel loved and wanted. You’ll spend a lot of effort keeping this from happening, making sure your kid knows that he was wanted by you - that you consider yourselves LUCKY that you never got pregnant so he could come into your lives - and it will be an uphill battle because people will always assume you’d still rather have had bio kids - and they’ll say as much in front of him. People close to you will remain childless rather than adopt and tell you - in front of your kids “I could never raise someone else’s kid.” People will tell your kid that “he is so lucky that his parents adopted him” and tell you that you are “such good people for taking this (unwanted, rejected) child into your home.” This isn’t the low risk, safe option. Because in the end, this hurts adopted kids - YOUR kid. I think you are overestimating the harm that this could cause your adoption (as I said, I’ve “watched” over 1000 of these in the past eight years - they don’t turn you down for telling someone in workshop to put a sock in it), and underestimating the future harm in not correcting this insensivity every chance you get - and not seeing this as an opportunity to practice a skill you’ll want down pat before you have a toddler (particularly if this is an interracial adoption - you can hide a same race adoption from strangers and avoid the grocery store comments). You are considering her insensitive to your fertility - I think she’s insulting MY KID. As such, I’m in protecting my young mode. And its a topic that strikes home, because I have to correct people all the time because I have a surprise bio kid right on the heels of the adopted one, who say stupid shit in front of my kids like “gee, if you would have conceived her just a few months earlier, you’d never have needed to adopt him.” (response “we consider ourselves so fortunate that we were sub fertile or we’d never have gotten both our wonderful children - and we can’t imagine life without either of them.”)
Jesus Christ on a pogo stick, Dangerosa! Assuming much? Lay off furnishesq for behaving with dignity in a difficult situation! You’re suggesting that not reacting to trolling from a total stranger that is NOT in front of a child is somehow equated to standing by silently while an ACTUAL child is harassed? Why is it so hard for you to see the **complete and total **disconnect between the two?
Frankly, I think furnishesq’s ability – and the ability of his wife and everyone else in the class – to maintain their cool in the face of that woman’s trolling behavior is an excellent demonstration of their fitness FOR parenthood! Not flying off the handle at absolute idiocy from total strangers is a difficult thing to do at times, and I say this as a parent who had a child with a visible physical problem that brought on more than a few stupid remarks, stares, pointing, and laughter from total asshole complete strangers. Sometimes the mature person just moves on and ignores total jackassery as the only responsible behavior. A concept you obviously have no grasp of!
I do think, furnishesq, that after the class is completed, a letter to the person running the class, with a copy to their supervisor, about how unpleasant you found this woman’s behavior to be and how you hope that in the future they will act more proactively in such a situation, would be the best way to handle it. That would be a great setting to point out how it made you feel as if the victory fist woman was rubbing it in all of your faces that she feels a natural-born child is somehow superior to an adopted child, and you found that very disturbing for the future well-being of her adopted child. And if you can get everyone else in the class to sign it? All the better.