I Think DrChuckie Needs His Very Own Thread

The BBQ Pit
241

To be sung to the tune of a cheesy old John Denver song that you won’t be able to get out of your head for weeks, believe me…

Punha licking posters makes me happy
Punha licks my eyes, and makes me cry
Punha on the Straight Dope posts fre-quent-ly
Punha almost always says he’s bi.

If I had a post that I could type for you,
I’d write for you a post to make you gay,
If I had a song that I could sing for you,
I’d sing a song that sounded um, okay.

If I had a tale that I could tell you,
I would just copy Scylla’s posting style,
If I had a wish that I could wish for you,
I’d wish I hadn’t posted this text file.

242

H4E, I’m sorry if you feel that I have been speaking to you in a nasty way; I still feel that you have not answered my question (I must have asked you more than a dozen times now).

Anytime you feel up to it, I’d really like you to explain in depth how and why you know that what you believe is abolutely and incontrovertibly true (and I mean going beyond simply stating that the Bible is God’s Word - I want to know how and why you know this to be the case).

I’m afraid that I may keep on asking you this question until you provide a satisfactory answer. Please note that referring back to previous instances of dodging a question is not the same as having answered the question.

243

Look, Mangetout, I wish I could e mail you. I don’t want to post anymore. I’m going to say that maybe you’re right and I’m wrong about everything. But I still believe what I believe. It’s a heart and faith thing. I was raised in church to believe the Bible is the word of God. I can’t prove it to you nor can I explain to your satisfaction why I believe it. It has the ring of truth in my soul. Like I said, maybe I’m wrong about the whole thing, but I still believe it’s true with all my heart. Please no more questions and I’ll leave you alone. This board is beyond my league. Christians like **Joe_Cool and jerseydiamond can handle it with good answers but I realize now that I can’t. The answers are inside but like Moses I don’t speak well and need somone to speak for me, like those mentioned above. No animosity toward you but I don’t want to post anymore. I’m simply not in you guys’ debating league. Sorry. This is the best answer I can give you.

244

But how can you know the Bible is true if you don’t understand it? You’ve been shown time and again that your understanding of Scripture is merely a repetition of what other people tell you it means–you’ve shown no sign of being able to do Biblical exegesis on your own, nor can you debate the meanings of the original Greek and Hebrew texts since you can read neither language. You are merely an ingorant sheep who blindly follows where others lead.

245

Thank you; it is actually rather a good answer (IMHO); I will definitely stop hounding you over this now.

…but (and you knew this was coming :wink: eh?) I reserve the right to call foul on factual inaccuracies (as indeed I hope people will do to me).
[Hypothetical examples ahead]

“God’s favourite colour is green” is a statement of faith - something on which we must agree or agree to differ - short of God appearing personally to everyone on the planet (and us all being certain that it was really him) and confirming this, the possibility of varied opinion exists and nobody’s opinion can really be said to trump anyone else’s.

“All Mormons eat newborn babies fried in crispy batter on a daily basis” is a statement of verifiable fact - we can thoroughly investigate this claim and reach a conclusion as to whether or not it is true; difference of opinion over factual matters (where there exists substantial weight of evidence) means that (at least) one party is wrong.

The problem here on the board is that DrChuckie has made some statements of fact (one of them was that homosexuality causes societal damage, but I think there may have been others), then utterly failed to back them up with evidence.

246

And Polycarp can handle it with better answers, too, but you don’t beleive that.
Yes, this board is out of your league, His , you are never going to “get it”.

247

There was a time when I respected you. Although I still appreciate you turning me on to Rufus Wainwright, this abomination will be hard to get over.

:wink:

248

Sweet His, hatred was one of the most terrible problems even Jesus preached about, one of the worst sicknesses of men.

Aside from that, however, why do you show no love to those who revile you? Why do you not forgive those who say cruel things to you? If you do, then why do you deliver your kind words only to Polycarp and not the rest of us?

Love will get you more than hate. Kindness will take you further than harsh words. If you saw someone suffering from a sickness, someone who cursed your name, would you not bless him as Jesus asked you to do? Give love to your opponents.

If nothing else, it confuses them. :smiley:

249

I have a question:

His4ever, what do you want us to do? What is your purpose in coming here in the first place?

Do you want us to change OUR beliefs?

250

Guin, I honestly think that the whole “I have to preach their sin” thing is all about ego, rather than love of their neighbor. They feel that they have to be the ones who say the “magic words” that will convict me of my sins and lead me to lay down this sinful and corrupt lifestyle that I lead. It has to be them. If they don’t say the words, then someone else might later and they won’t get the “credit” for bringing someone out of the lifestyle. So every time they interact, they can’t just offer sympathy for the trials that gay men and lesbians suffer every day in this society. They have to make sure we understand that our “lifestyle” is sinful and corrupt, in the hopes that it will take this time.

Just my opinion, but I think it’s accurate to a fair degree…

251

I think that she meant that being good at debate doesen’t make you right. I could win every arguement with my family about just about anything, but that isin’t going to change their mind because they know I could win the arguement even if I was wrong.

It is also probably because people sometimes can’t admit they are wrong because of the people they surround themselves with. Deciding to not hate gay people could get you in trouble in some places in America.

252

Then don’t. If you’re unable to resist the temptation to do something you say you don’t want to do, send e-mail to one of the Admins who will be more than pleased to assist you with this false dilemma.

Call 911! I think I’m hallucinating! This is an actual, honest, to the point, satisfactory, and non-evasive answer!

See my earlier comment about this “threat.”

That’s because you adamantly refuse to learn. You refuse to accept advice. You refuse to engage that gift of God I mentioned earlier.

You must be joking! What? You’re not? Oh, good grief. Their answers are far from good. Heck, they’re almost as bad as you are.

Be sure to send that e-mail to one of the Admins then.

253

That’s a good question. One that I hope His4Ever decides to answer.

254

I been watching this thread a while now. I could not possibly disagree more with the viewpoints that His4Ever has stated. As far as Chuckles is concerned, I can’t even be bothered to disagree with folderol. I think a better tactic to deal with his kind is to let various advocacy groups know about his URL and let them pursue it as they see fit.

Thus far, I’ve taken an “I’m too wussy to get into THIS firefight” stance. But I find I do have a question that I’d like to pose to Monty in particular, but anyone who has taken His4Ever to task here too. I also will simply share my viewpoint on the lifecycle of this discussion.

Monty, Eve, et al: Is there, in fact, ANYTHING you can imagine that she could say to convince you of her viewpoint? This seems a “faith/emotion” based debate (certainly on her side, as she’s admitted) rather than one based on reason. You’re never going to “reason” her out of her faith-based viewpoint.

And, if we’re being honest, I doubt it’s entirely a “reason” based argument on the other side of the coin either. I mean, seriously, have all of us got a rationalization for WHY homosexuality is okay/not a sin? Or is it simply something we know, another “truth we hold to be self-evident?” I know it’s absolutely NOT entirely reason-based for me: i.e. I have a gay brother, and can’t imagine any line of reasoning that would convince me to leap over that emotional boundary to change my view of homosexuality as ‘just fine.’ If you asked me to argue why homosexuality is a non-issue, I’d be hard pressed to give you more of an argument than “duh! of course it is.”

So, this part onward is strictly my 2c. Considering that the subject of the OP has obviously been run outta town, and considering that everyone has restated their viewpoints multiple times, and considering that any effort to “help” His4Ever be a more appropriate part of the mix on this board has failed, why aren’t we all just agreeing that we disagree with her and calling it a day?

Of course, feel free to ignore me on this, not trying to stifle discussion, just suggesting me might all be well served by moving on… I always tend to think a thread has been done to death when the posts start moving toward like-minded individuals commenting to each other on what “they” think and “their” motivations are.

255

DrL: The answer to the question you’ve posed to me is already in my posting above yours, and also in the vast majority of my postings regarding H4E. As I’ve told her in this very thread, nobody cares if she believes what she believes. All people want her to do is to quit touting demonstrable lies, to quit spouting bigoted statements, to do some research. In short: to think and to treat her audience (you, me, and everyone else who reads this board) as though we are also thinking adults.

256

DrLizardo, you pose a good question. Let me give it a shot.

I don’t know if there’s anything that H4E and her ilk could say to convince me that my position on this issue is wrong. I know that everything that they’ve said so far is easily disproved. I’ve seen them taken to task time and again by posters of strong religious faith who claim that the H4E mentality is incompatible with the tenets of Christianity, and is in fact driving people away from the churches.

My position on this issue has never been countered to my satisfaction. I maintain that I am a human being, and I deserve the same rights as every other human being in my country. I pay my taxes, I work, I contribute to the community, and my being gay harms no-one. These are the facts that I believe entitle me to the same recognition as other citizens of my country, and the reason that I don’t believe homosexuality can be called a sin. The claims made against me and people like me are based on ignorance and fear, and they all dissolve immediately when addressed by rational people. And yet, these beliefs continue to be held up as justification for the continuing denial of my rights, and society’s constant denigration of people like me.

I would love to stop arguing this matter, but it affects my life in too many ways, as it affects the lives of hundreds of thousands of other people as well. And I’m not talking about vague, undefined effects.

I’m unemployed at the moment, and I would love to have the health insurance that my partner could get for me through his work, but, well, we’re gay. A straight couple could go to the courthouse, and be married right away, and have all the benefits of being spouses for a $50 license fee. It literally costs less than licensing my dog. But we’re looking at hundreds of dollars in lawyers’ fees, just to get the legal protections that straight couples take for granted in place; power of attorney, inheritance rights, property rights, etcetera. If we’re ever able to adopt, it’ll be another, larger legal nightmare to make sure the kids’ safety and future are taken care of, and hundreds or thousands of dollars more in legal fees. And even then, they’re not as ironclad or as comprehensive as the protections granted a straight couple gets down at the courthouse for their fifty bucks.

Meanwhile, violence against gay people is still a major consideration every time my boyfriend and I are out in public. Holding hands with him outside our home is a risk to both our lives. A gay man was beaten to death blocks from his home here in Tucson last July, and his only crime seems to have been coming out of the wrong bar. A man was stabbed for standing in front of the wrong coffee house. People get the crap beaten out of them frequently. And it’s all fueled by the self-righteous bleating of people like H4E, who spend an inordinate amount of time spreading lies to make people think we’re subhuman, and then act surprised when people decide that makes us excellent targets for violence.

The fact that the people on this board are intelligent and compassionate enough to recognize the tripe these people spew for what it is, and can call them on it every time, speaks volumes about the character of the people here. I think that every time these threads expose the thin veil of lies supporting the oppression of GLBT people, and send the pseudo-religious hypocrites scurrying, there are some people reading out there whose opinions are swayed towards recognizing all human beings as equal, regardless of their sexuality. That’s a worthwhile reason to continue these threads in and of itself.

257

It’s a good question. I don’t actually think I’ve participated significantly in these arguments, though I do tend to read them.

As to the matter of response in faith – there’s a certain component of that in my response to that sort of thing. The easiest way to put it (and since this is the Pit, I’m not feeing overmuch urge to soften it from the easy way) runs like, “I believe that a god who would condemn love and consensual manifestations thereof is a false god, and its followers idolators and blasphemers.” So there’s my irrational and potentially offensive belief set up against the whole “It’s in the Bible” irrational and potentially offensive belief.

I have more of a rational response to the question of hellfire-and-damnation, actually. I’ve studied a lot of religions and their practices over the course of my life, and, at various points, considered myself a member of several. A straight Pascal’s Wager isn’t available to me, because the choices I see aren’t between ‘believe’ and ‘don’t believe’, but a full spectrum of varieties and manifestations of belief. When I consider a faith for myself, I judge whether it seems to be coming from a perspective that I can share fully, whether it offers me guidance or insight that I particularly need to be a better person, and whether its precepts strike me as leading to an improved world for my loved ones, myself, and everyone else. Taking up a philosophy that I believe will degrade the world’s condition because of some nebulous post-mortem conditional strikes me as being both selfish and a bad way to live my life.

It’s entirely possible to convince me that a particular philosophy or religion will lead to a better world than the one what would result from the set of beliefs I hold. However, it would take a great deal more rigorous argument than “Well, damnation if you don’t!”, because I don’t happen to believe that I am justified in choosing a path that I believe inferior and liable to do others tangible harm for my own numinous comfort. An approach to the divine that better describes my own experiences, an ethical or moral approach that gives me better insight, a mythology that I find more personally evocative and inspiring – all of these are potential points for convincing me to choose a path for myself. (I’m inclined to consider the multiplicity of faith variants a testament to the need for multiple approaches to accomodate human variety.)

Even if we posit, though, that I could be convinced differently about homosexuality, that leaves open the question of whether I could be convinced that I had any legitimate reason to say anything about that belief to others. There are a few things that I believe to be morally unacceptable now, and I rarely mention them to the people I find deficient; partly this is because I recognise that codes differ, and thus an argument founded on my personal beliefs is not likely to get much of anywhere, and partly this is because the matter seems to me to be between the “sinner”, those sinned against, and whichever god is involved.

I happen to believe that people who argue positions like His4Ever’s position are behaving immorally as they do so. However, I will try not to argue with them on the basis of morality, but tangible fact and tangible harm; an argument from morality can be refuted simply with “I don’t believe in that crap”. It would take a great deal of additional convincing to get me to agree that making such an argument would be a good and worthwhile idea.
So, in short, it is within the realm of possibility that an argument of His4Ever’s would convert me to some or many aspects of her position, but I believe it to be vanishingly unlikely, as I believe that her position is actively harmful to the world (as manifested by people like MrVisible, whose post is in front of me as I write this) and would not provide me with any useful moral insights. She and others like her are entirely welcome to prove me wrong in this belief by mustering fact, tangible improvement, and ethical points of which I am unaware and which do not exist in equal or better measure in my own established beliefs.

258

Nonsense! The whole Tree of Knowledge thing in the Garden of Eden proves that the human ability to think is nothing but a tool of SATAN! You start thinking too much, and that old devil-in-serpent’s-guise is going to use it to tempt you away from the One True Way.

Fortunately, we have other passages in the Bible to protect us from the vile act of having an open mind, such as Deuteronomy 13:6-11 which tells us to stone to death anyone who wants us to try out a different religion.

259

I’ve said it before… Hyper-Fundamentalist Christianity can have control of my brain when they pry it out of my cold, dead cranium.

260

Dr. Chuckie and His4Ever,

My brain hurts when I read posts by self-proclaimed conservative Christians such as yourselves. I need to know: how can you believe that out of the 1000s of religions which have existed throughout human history, yours is the only true religion?

It makes my brain hurt. I just cannot understand how anyone can believe that their religion is fact and that all of the Muslims and Islamics and Pagans and members of Heaven’s Gate are living a fictitious lie. Please, please, please take a stab at explaining this baffling conviction to me!

I really want to understand your thought process. Or is that it? Perhaps there is no thought process to speak of!