Eh, state the positive. “I heard your mom has cancer. That must be really rough for you. It’s always hard when misfortune comes to those close to us.”
The important part isn’t “there’s no immortal soul”. The important part is “our relationships with other people are central to our lives.”
There are some things that can be thought of as minor courtesy gestures to show other people that you view them as worthy of polite behavior. Saying “bless you” is one, that really holds no instrinsic value other than showcasing politeness. Holding doors open for people is another, because although that can have some utility many times people will hold doors open for others from quite a distance away. I wouldnt tell them to shut the door, because I have 2 hands and I can open my own doors. Likewise, I wouldnt tell somebody not to say “bless you” when I sneeze because there is no God, even though that is my conviction. I say bless you because it is a polite social convention, and I definitely say thank you if someone says it to me. I never feel like a hypocrite.
My point is there’s no way to express condolences in a way that’s explicitly atheistic that’s socially acceptable. Obviously, I know how to express non-religious condolences without sounding like an asshole.
I look at “I’ll pray for you” in the same way. That is to say. I don’t literally expect them to ask an invisible man in the sky on behalf any more that I would expect them to bop themselves on the head with a mallet.
I know both Jews and Christians who have literally mentioned the name of a sick person at their prayer service.
I’m assuming that like most atheists, you care more about the stuff you do believe in than about the stuff you don’t believe in. So it kinda matters more to Christians to bring up Jesus than it matters to most atheists to bring up “not-Jesus”.
I do like that in a court of law you can choose to “affirm” instead of swearing.
When I had cancer, members of the Jewish community asked me if I would like to be on the prayer list. That was reasonable and welcome.
When my father died, my boss earnestly told me that he was in heaven, looking down and holding me in his arms. That was not okay.
Well, that’s the thing. It is kind of important that people remember that atheists exist, and that they probably interact with multiple atheists a day. Visibility is an important part of protecting the rights of any minority, and atheists are a minority that aren’t terribly well like by a lot of people. And visibility is hard for atheists, because as a group we’re defined by something we don’t do. It’d be nice if there were some socially acceptable way of casually asserting atheism that wasn’t perceived as jerkish, but that’s just functionally hard to do, and not entirely because of religious hegemony - it’s not Christianity’s fault that my tongue-in-cheek “atheist condolence” is inappropriate, atheism just sucks as a way of offering emotional comfort to people.
Hopefully, I’m not taking this bit out of context.
If the “Inveterate Door Holders” were organized, well funded, and had a pretty clear political agenda (the way Christianity in America basically is), then I might politely decline to have the door held for me.
As I mentioned upthread – and maybe not of their own volition – the “have a blessed day” and “I’ll be praying for you” folks tend to be a subset of a superset that has clear political aims that are generally rejected by the majority of Americans and may, at least occasionally, fly in the face of Constitutional Law, or – at the very least – tend to subjugate minority and vulnerable populations.
No bueno.
That’s why I put these folks in a particular folder in my mental file cabinet.
I’m a nonbeliever, and I couldn’t care less if someone tells me they’ll be praying for me or my family, or whatever. I think it’s silly, but causes me now harm at all.
If it makes them feel better, I’m good with it. Went to an actual barber shop about a year ago for the first time in ages. The lady barber noticed the growth on my left temple, asked if she could lay hands on it and pray for it to go away. No skin off my nose, made her feel better, didn’t work (at least until I see the dermatologist in a couple months). Taken in the same spirit as hearing “Merry Christmas”. Take it in the spirit in which it’s intended.
And I think that goes along with what I was saying earlier:
To put it another way, when a person says something like “I’ll pray for you,” are they saying it for the sake of the other person? or are they saying it for their own sake, or the sake of promoting their religion, or something like that?
If you’re looking to use someone else’s misfortune as an occasion to remind people that atheists exist, you’re choosing the wrong circumstance. I don’t think there’s a way of doing so that is for the benefit of that person, as opposed to your own benefit, or other atheists’, or Atheism in general.
I take your point. I was was replying to one post in the thread, and forgot the general purpose of the thread. I agree that the more extreme sort of religious “well wishing” can be a symptom of a larger desire to shove religion into public spaces where we don’t want it. And it is a well funded and organized movement, and many of our government officials belong to it. I support none of that, but I will say “bless you” even though I am personally an atheist. ETA: Not every Christian in America is of the right wing, authoritarian sort. I keep this in mind when thinking of the “I will pray for you” comments.
Pray for me
But don’t mention me by name
No, that’s not it at all. My point is not that I want to use someone’s grief as an excuse to promote atheism, nor do I think that most theists are primarily motivated by that when they say they’ll pray for someone. But the practical effect of this is that atheists continue to be invisible in the culture, and that invisibility is a serious issue when it comes to protecting minority rights.
I’m not going to lie, that’s a bridge too far for me. A little outside my comfort zone.
I once knew a woman who stuffed her monthly bills into her Bible and would say, “God’ll pay 'em.”
That didn’t work out so well for her, either.
Yes. The occasional “I’ll pray for you” and “bless you” don’t bother me a bit, but wanting me to participate in a ritual of any kind would be a big no.
That’s fair. I can routinely assert my “not Christian” status by virtue of being Jewish. Judaism is more about practice than belief, so i really am a Reform Jew, despite not believing in God.
I have a friend who became a humanist minister, and found it more comfortable to state a positive (he’s a humanist) than the implied negative (he doesn’t believe in any God or gods). But of course, most atheists aren’t going to give humanist sermons on the radio or perform humanist weddings and funerals.
There are people in this thread who have said it would bother them, though. Our standards shouldn’t be “am I personally bothered by this,” but instead “are there a significant number of people who would be bothered, and is it important to me to show them respect?”
The reason it would bother me personally is because there’s probably a lot a person could do for me if they really cared. “How can I help? Can I bring you dinner?” But instead they’re doing something that makes them feel good, not me.
Assuming I thought their heart was in the right place, I wouldn’t be offended. But I’d be bothered that they were doing something meaningful to them, and apparently don’t care enough to think about what would be meaningful to me.
From a scientific perspective, I think the prayers are useless. And the person is supposedly doing this for me, so why do their desires outweigh mine?
If someone told me their father was sick and they were praying for him, it would be incredibly rude for me to tell them “don’t bother, prayers are useless,” because that would be imposing my beliefs on their grief. So why is it OK for them to impose their beliefs on mine?