No, no, not just from other women. Are you kidding me? The pressure to stay thin and young-looking is not just to impress women. It’s because men value this—a lot.
Old men, young men, fat men, grey-haired men, they all are considered attractive. With women? Let’s see. Young. Thin. Middle-aged, perhaps, depending on how much work she has done. But grey-haired? Fat? Pardon the pun, but fat chance.
Tall men have an edge over short men, that is true. But Tom Cruise ain’t tall, neither is Mel Gibson, or a jillion other guys. And yet they still are considered hotties. (True, a film can disguise a guy’s shortness to an extent, but is it really any secret that Tom Cruise is short? I doubt it.)
So now we’ve got for men: Old, young, fat, thin, grey-haired, maybe not short (taller better). For women we’ve got: Young, thin, tall or short. Gosh. Guess which list is longer?
Well, then, you give me the whole list. What characteristics can women have (that are considered attractive to men) that men can’t have and still be attractive to women? I’m sure I’ve missed a few. But I am still not buying that the lists are equally long. You’ve got to do a lot better to convince me that men have it equally as hard.
Not only have I not made this claim, I’m not even sure what you are talking about.
Have what equally hard?
If you are talking about how hard it is to be seen as attractive, then I think the subject is far too complicated to say either sex has it “easier.”
Moreover, variability within each sex is huge. There are men and women who will not be seen by society as attractive no matter what they do, and there are those who are seen as attractive without having to do anything.
I suspect that if you want to look for a general answer, it would be that young women have the easiest job of being seen as attractive, while old women have the hardest. Is that pretty much what you are saying?
Given that, it’s a worthless statement if that’s all you mean by it. Everybody prefers rich generous up-front likeable guys over poor miserly passive-aggressive assholes, not just for sexmaking, but for all possible forms of interaction. Would I be happier if evensven wasn’t poor? Fuck yeah. Was that my primary consideration in getting with her? Clearly not, since I AM with her. Do some guys make that their primary consideration, just as some girls do? Sure, everybody’s got their own damn hangups. Does every girl care about it? Only in the sense that everybody cares about it.
Well, I don’t know why you jumped in here, then. Because we’ve been talking about the attractiveness standards, and how important they are (in general) to each gender.
That’s true. But I think that there’s more “wiggle room,” or less of a strict standard for physical attractiveness men, in general. A guy with average looks can gain weight, lose some hair, get older, get grey hair, and his “hotness” level will suffer a little, but it probably won’t disappear. A woman with average looks can gain weight, lose some hair, get older, get grey hair, and her hotness level has more of a chance of plummeting big time. Because the expectations are different. In my observation, a higher percentage of women are able to look past a gain of 25 to 50 pounds, for instance, while a guy will bitch and bitch and bitch about it, or flat-out will consider a woman with that much extra weight to be completely unacceptable. (Note I don’t say “all” men will do this, I say “a higher percentage.”)
Old women have a hard time bagging hot young dudes. You’re more likely to see an old guy with a hot chick than the other way around. (And yes, we know that money is often an issue, but still the fact remains—less hot guys end up with old chicks, no matter how rich they are). A fat chick, no matter what her age, generally has a harder time of it than a fat guy.
Bags and wrinkles under the eyes of a man can look “distinguished.” Bags and wrinkles under the eyes of a woman look “old.” And so forth and so on.
Sez who? Dudes really don’t have control of who posts what in a thread- unless you’re a Moderator or something. Sure- “hijacking” is rude- but “challenging the premise” is perfectly OK. And I challenge the OP’s premise that "nice guys’ are like that in any way shape or form.
What it really sounds like, is coming up with a lame-o definition of “nice guy” which is one that no one I have ever seen use. It’s closer to “stalker” than “nice guy”. In fact- it’s not a “nice guy” at all. If it really* is* about “SPECIFIC SUBSET of men” then “Nice guy” is possibly the worst of all labels you could put in on this “subset”. "Rat bastards’- “Losers”- sure. But not “nice guys”. What is this- “1984” and New-speak? :dubious: Or maybe we are behind the Looking Glass, and Humpty Dumpty is doing our definitions for us? :rolleyes:
Then- after coming up with a stupid definition of “nice guy” so that no one in their right mind can agree that you poor women should go out with one, you’re free to go back to your “bad boys”- which when they abuse you or dump you (which is exactly what “bad boys” *do[/])- then you can sit on the couch and eat Haagen-daas ice cream right out of the container, and bitch that “all men are scum”. :dubious:
Excellent points. And ones which, once again, blow the dominance theory as the beall and endall of what attracts partners to each other out of the water.
This has no bearing on the SPNG. SPNGs aren’t all just poor, cheap, doormats social pariahs. There are good looking SPNGs. Ones that make decent money. Ones that can behave well in public.
The subject matter is whether or not men who basically abuse women by, when rejected for a date by them, become abusive, accusatory, stalker-y, and a host of other very UNNICE behaviours, are to be pitted.
The subject matter you, blowero, and aeshines are bringing up is about sexually attractive, fairly well off men vs. not so hot, not so well off men, and which ones women prefer more.
With that, and ONLY that as the subject, (a waaaaay OFF OP subject), then the answer is yes, the tendency on the parts of BOTH sexes is to go to the most attractive partner your “market value” net you.
The problem is, that the SPNG blames women and other men for his lack of market value.
It’s like a bunch of little kids turned loose in a candy store. It’s not the CANDY’S fault that you can’t afford the very best chocolates. Nor is it the fault of the little kids who can afford the best candies.
Even if the little kid who can afford the best candy is a complete little brat, it’s STILL not their fault, or the fault of the candy that you can’t afford it also.
Are little kids going to buy the very best, and the most if they can afford it? OF COURSE!!! Human nature. Not evil intent, not to “show” the little other little kids that yours is the best, merely because the best candy is the yummiest (okay, not in the case of marzipan, BLEEEECH, but you get the idea).
Actually, marzipan is another good analogy. It’s very yucky, (well some people really like it), but it’s kinda bland and tasteless, though it’s VERY pretty, and VERY expensive. It’s kinda like Paris Hilton if you think about it, gorgeous and spendy, but nothing there.
(sorry, I digress, I guess I want some chocolate).
And yes, sometimes there is going to be a little kid or two that are all about the “haha, I got some yummy Swiss choccy, and you only get tootsie rolls”. But it’s STILL not the candy’s fault.
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CanvasShoes said:
Good GOD cat, we all realize that you’re the ultimate self appointed Diva in protecting all that is masculine, but for someone who professes to prefer writing and thinking “logically and analytically” when it comes to men you’re anything but.
As I’ve told you every time you comment upon this, that’s laziness, not angst. Like a lot of people here, I use caps in place of bolding or italics. Easier on my old eyes, than trying to type all those tags. But you knew that since I’ve answered your complaints on this several other times.
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Do you think that a man is being “nice” if when rejected for a date, he starts berating and verbally abusing the woman he just asked out?
No one in this thread has said that men are always wrong. What we HAVE been saying (that HAVE was emphasis, not emotion), was that those men who DO exhibit the SPNG behaviour were always wrong when they do that. It has nothing to do with ordinary nice guys. Boy! are you a thick headed young lady. I know you’re not dumb, but things just don’t seem to sink in.
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If you think that no, he’s not being nice, then BINGO! That’s WHO we’re talking about. Those men, and JUST those men who pretend to be nice, but who aren’t. And not only aren’t, but who are assholes in the bargain.
You have a really hard time with reading comprehension don’t you? As several of us have said several times in this thread, these are the reactions of men when we turn down UNSOLICITED requests for a date. For instance, men who know us from work, school, a club who approach us.
And then upon being turned down, behave in the way stated in the OP.
Secondly. Just like the “assholes” that the SPNGs are always complaining women go after, SPNGs can seem like perfectly ordinary men up until the first date. It has nothing to do with what ‘parameters’ a woman has set.
Any man has the potential to be an SPNG, it has nothing to do with that we’ve dismissed geeks and supposedly only date rich, tall, good looking guys.
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In this pitting, the OP very clearly pointed out the type of person she was talking to. The guy in the OP DID fall under the SPNG category by going on and on about how bad women are, and how they always screw him over and so on (paraphrased).
Why should she put up with the way he acted during the date? If he acted like a jerk, she was well within her rights to tell him off.
Do we “owe” men a relationship merely on the basis that they want to have us? If a person, any person male or female, behaves badly, a person is well within their rights to tell them so. He spent the entire date whining about how badly he’d been treated by women in the past, how women only date assholes, etc. This is not acceptable behaviour, from anyone, Man or woman.
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Again, no you didn’t. No woman in THIS thread has said any such thing. You’re just not paying attention, as per usual you’re letting your knee jerk need to jump to the defense of any imagined slight to a male, whether deserved or not.
No one, in THIS THREAD…I’ll say that again sloooowwwwly.
No…one,…in THIS …thread, has done what you accuse. No one here is dating only rich, tall, goodlooking men and then wondering why they’re being treated badly. As per usual, you’re rushing to the defense of some imagined slight to the male population.
Neither is anyone in this thread is complaining about only finding rich, tall, goodlooking assholes who treat them badly. (remember? your post about us supposedly choosing the wrong parameters for out dating pool?). We’re talking about a specific group of men, who mostly unsolicited, (but yes, sometimes we try a date with them), ask us out, or upon being refused a second date, become verbally abusive and insulting.
They don’t deserve your misplaced motherly concern. If those men, the ones who behave the specific way we’ve been describing act that way then they are screwing up. They’re being jerks. And whether or not the woman who turned them down has the right parameters set in who she chooses to date, the behaviour they’re exhibiting is STILL not nice.
And that one of the main points of this OP, that they claim to be nice guys, but they’re NOT. They’re assholes. So in that way, they’re wrong, because if women only dated assholes, they’d actually have a chance.
I know, I KNOW, I’m sooo lazy. But my laptop has such a tiny font (yes, I have the text view on largest), and it makes me kinda nauseated to use my reading glasses for typing on the screen).
First, I have dialup, so preview takes forever.
Second tt’s kindof hard to see which way the brackets go, so rather than risk broken tags, which are even more unpleasant to see than caps, I use them for emphasis.
I’m from the North! (That’s what I mentioned in another thread: a waitress from Georgia said this because I didn’t know what hush puppies were.) So Californians are from the North (in a loose sense)! And actually, I got that little “bless your heart” expression from a midwestern friend. It sort of stuck, you know?
It’s okay, I don’t care! It’s a “style” issue. There are different formats people use, and your format or style is to use all caps for emphasis. It’s cool.
I think it’s perfectly fine to hijack, but it needs to be made clear that it IS a hijack, and not defense of, or agreement with the OP.
Nice of you to jump into the thread and not read all of the post. roliie back at you. Pay attention if you’re going to jump on people!
WE did not give this subset of men their nickname of “Nice Guy”. In fact, again if you’d read all the posts, and not just jumped in midway, you’d have seen where many of us bemoaned the bastardization of a perfectly good term for actual genuine nice guys.
At any rate, Nice Guy (tm, I still didn’t get that to work whoever showed me how to do it :)), is the name they give themSELVES. As in, “I’m Nice Guy, I deserve to have her more, that asshole doesn’t, but that’s right (heavy sarcasm and bitter tone ensues), woman always date the bad boy”. And so on.
Say, are you a girl? Who is hit on by men? No? Well then how would you know whether or not this type of person exists? If you ARE a girl and have never had this happen, you’re very, very lucky.
bolding mine
Again, WE didn’t come up with the term, as we’ve said dozens of times in this thread, this type of guy are themselves Self-Proclaimed “Nice Guys”. We are NOT talking about genuine nice guys, nor are we talking about average guys. I for one, adore both of those types. And was happily going out with one (a very geeky, starving IT student one) for 7 and a half years. Oh and HE broke MY heart, not the other way around. And, we’re still good friends. And despite him being “the one that got away” I still love men. I think that most are great, not most are scum.
I don’t even think the SPNG is “scum”. I do think it’s assholish, and he belongs in the “bad boy” category same as the “assholes” he so denigrates.
And lastly, Cite please? Who, in this thread, has said “all men are scum”?
And if you turn them down the way the OP did, which is to basically call them a loser without being so direct about it, no wonder they bitch.
Yes, since he wasn’t exactly what she wanted it was her absolute right to hack on his self-esteem by amplifying his belief that he’s a loser. It’ll be good practice for when someone buys her the ‘wrong’ gift.
Ah, your true feminist colors shining through. Actually, I think what you ‘owe’ people is the respect to treat them like human beings, which doesn’t include telling them point blank that their lack of self-estteem is caused by them being a loser. Then again, we only have the OP’s word for how he acted, which for all I know is just as blown out of proportion as the woman who was upset for six months over not getting the right gift.
Whatever your parameters are, you’re obviously doing something wrong if you continue the same behavior and always get the same undesirable results.
Did it ever occur to you that maybe there are guys who say that who are actually nice and who have actually been shit on by bitches like you their entire lives?
Oh poor, poor you. You’ve been hit on by someone you weren’t interested in. Dear god that must’ve been horrid. Did you pull a Catharine MacKinnon and hand them a business card with the word ‘No!’ printed on it?
Yosemite, you are correct and I’m surprised this is even controversial. In terms of “looks management,” women have it tougher than men, end of story.
As far as age goes, there’s a simple ev-psy reason why women start to seem less attractive once they’re not of child-bearing age: they’re not of child-bearing age. In contrast, men can supply the goods well past middle age.
Women do have a few advantages that men don’t have, however. They are “allowed” to use makeup, hairstyles, and clothing with much greater variety.
I would say that weight and youth pressure come primarily from men; but fashion pressure comes overwhelmingly from other women. I think beyond a certain “looks OK” level men really don’t care (a woman must dress appropriately for her caste and social milieu, however. A brahmin would not want to take a neo-punk home to Mother).
FWIW your befuddlement at vBb tags is acquiring the category of endearing quirk. Mainly because it allows the rest of us the ego-boost of projecting coding dominance
[sub] (hint: it’s the actual 3-letter strings “sub” and “sup” that are used in the tag) [/sub]
The OP said to him (quoting directly from the OP) “I very kindly told him that confidence is sexy, and better luck next time.”
Is this so bad that his self-esteem is ruined? Did she do a “hack” on his self-esteem by turning him down like that? Give me a frickin’ break. Men are not hothouse flowers. And actually, at least she showed him the respect of telling him what it was about him that turned her off. Now he knows, and he isn’t left wondering. Personally, I think there’s something cruel about never telling someone what exactly they’re doing wrong. If nobody ever tells them, they may never know, and therefore, may never to fix the problem.
I know you are highly motivated to believe that the OP somehow savaged his self-esteem and was some raging bitch to him, but she responded to you thus: “but I can assure you that I was nothing but polite.” Of course, you can continue to disbelieve her, but she was there, you weren’t, and your default assumption that she must be lying (because she’s not giving you the answers you want to hear) is not really all that compelling to the rest of us.
I’ve been told I need more self-esteem more than a few times. This didn’t make me think I was more of a loser. When someone screams at you, “LOSER!” then you know you’re being called a loser. Someone kindly telling you that self-esteem is sexy, and “better luck next time” isn’t quite in that same ballpark. I’ll repeat: men are not hothouse flowers.
You’ve been told this before, and you won’t seem to acknowledge it: people here are not primarily complaining of repeatedly getting the same undesirable result. They are just talking about the Nice Guys that they’ve encountered, and what a pain in the ass they are.
Who cares if they are now behaving like a selfish asshole? If he’s behaving like a whining wimp or a self-absorbed jerk, then she does not necessarily owe him the extra time and effort to delve into his personality and find out why he’s really this way. And it’s highly doubtful that guys who are truly nice get shit on every time.
I don’t have to believe her simply because ‘she was there.’ As much as she says this guy was whining about how women are, she started this thread to bitch and moan about some type of guy, which she must’ve had more than one experience with or she wouldn’t have whined about a group.
How is her complaint that much different from his?
So terribly sorry that not everyone reacts to criticism the same way you do.
Something that they have named as an entire group because it only happens to them once or twice?
Yup, cause all men are supposed to be tough and strong and not carry with them the weight of being crapped on. It’s just unmanly to do so. Right.
