Quote:
Originally Posted by yosemite
But you call me a dumbass because you can’t keep track? Please.
How did you get, from that sentence, that she HASN’T read the entire post? What she’s saying is that it’s not her job to keep track for YOU what was said.
FTR, based on posts, it’s pretty clear that Aeschines, Roland Ozebal, Guinastasia and several others have in fact read all of each and every post.
I have read each and every word of each one of the posts in here as well. See, what you do is you read them as they’re posted, rather than waiting until there ARE 303 posts and then trying to catch up.
Quote:
Guinastasia said:
When you turn him down, saying, “I’m sorry, but I’m already seeing someone,” he replies, “Oh, yeah, of course you wouldn’t want to go out with me, you’re probably seeing some asshole already. I guess I’m not good enough for you, since I’m just a nice guy,” sneering.
Well, lucky you that you’ve never experienced this. It does indeed happen though.
Further, are you simple? Neither do WE think that such a person is a Nice Guy. But that, when these types of guys do this, is what (I’ll say it loud and slow), it’s what THEY CALL THEMSELVES.
Again, We got the label “Nice Guy” (capitilized to differentiate them from actual genuine nice guys), from the men who exhibit this behaviour themSELVES.
We do NOT by using their own self proclamation of supposed “niceness” think these guys are nice.
Quote:Guinastasia
In my experience with the “Nice GuyTM”, this guy made me feel like shit for not catering to his every whim, and then whined that he never got dates because he was a “Nice Guy” and “Nice guys finish last.” Should I have gone out with him, even though I was in no way attracted to him? I should have just hooked up with him out of pity? Should I let someone guilt me into having sex with him, because if I turn him down that makes me a “feminazi bitch?”
No, hence the term “Self proclaimed, or professed” Nice Guy[sup]tm[/sup]
**NOTE THE CAPS? NOTE THE [sup]tm[/sup]??
[/quote]
, so HOW in all that is holy, are you in your fuzzy little brain managing to not only not GET that this is merely a description of a type, based on their own words, and NOT that we are stupid enough to think that these types are nice??? **NOTE THE LACK OF CAPS? NOTE THE LACK OF[sup]tm[/sup]??
[/quote]
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CanvasShoes said:
No one, especially not cat, came in here and said "you know? I know that these guys do indeed exist and are assholes, but it’s not fair to the real nice guys to appropriate THEIR label, let’s call these fake nice guys something else, say “loser stalker guy”. You’d get little or no opposition had it been couched in those terms.
I changed my mind, you ARE an idiot after all. No, no one has said that “any guy who calls himself nice” is a dickwad. Obviously we have been using words too big for YOU if that’s what you’re gleaning from our posts.
Again, the term Nice GuyTM, is merely a phrase to describe the types of guys who, in Guin’s excellent description:
"…In my experience with the “Nice GuyTM”, this guy made me feel like shit for not catering to his every whim, and then whined that he never got dates because he was a “Nice Guy” and “Nice guys finish last…”
That does NOT then equal that we think ill of any man saying he’s nice.
Quote:shoes
EXCELLENT points Guinastasia, too bad they’ll never pierce the void.
How would I know what her knowledge is based on? But, I recognize knowledge about men in the way she speaks. My knowledge of men is based on life experience of going on 46 years (well only 30 something of those dating, but prior to 15, experience with dad, teachers, other male role models). And in addition to that, both formal on personal human relations and psychology study. IIRC she has some training in that field as well.
Why in the name of all that is good or evil are you guys still talking to this Cat nit? She is NEVER going to get it—she reminds me of that scene in City Slickers where they are trying to explain how to record a show on a VHS tape and watch another show at the same time! Give it the fuck up–the girl ain’t going to get it.
Can’t you guys tell by now that she is a Nice Girl? That explains the Nice Guy issues she is having.
Hell I am a guy and I want her to shut up too! You (yosemite, guinastacia, Canvashoes and others) have all been pretty clear as to the specific types of behaviors you are talking about—and you all have been clear to make sure that you aren’t talking about nice guys–but Nice Guys. So what the fuck is the problem?
Anyone who comes in this thread and actually reads it (hint hint for a few posters) knows exactly the type you of guy you are talking about. And I am sure that any of the female posters here would also state that there are Nice Girls too–it isn’t gender specific. If I go on a date with some woman and all she does is complain about her ex boyfriend or husband and how he didn’t understand her, etc and then is all upset when I don’t call her again–that is Nice behavior. Starts stalking me, etc—Nice behavior again. She complains that guys don’t call her back and that they only want the pretty slim girls, etc–same issues as the Nice Guy. The Nice Girl can’t see what you are trying to say—sort of like catsix–sort of also make me wonder if she is a Nice Girl.
just my two cents worth–but the thread has been fucking interesting to read I will give you that!
Hehe, your last sentence is your answer. catsix is an interesting character.
Once in a great while she comes up with a hilarious gem. And she’s not bad, just firmly ensconsed in that mink lined vault that protects her from the reality of the world.
I think that there probably are Nice Girls, but they usually end up in long melodramatic affairs with abusers, so we don’t see them as much in the dating scene. The mentality and the refusal to see reality are both there in women who date abusers: Look! I’m so nice that I love he who does not deserve it! Pity me! All guys are assholes, so I’d better stick with the devil I know.
At least, that was what I was telling myself when I dated abusers :o :smack:
Side note: my (non-abusive) boyfriend calls them Bag Ladies (for all the baggage they have when they do make it into the dating world, ya know?)
Well, considering I hate mink and spend a lot more time in the real world that certain other ‘men expert’ posters who have a freaking panic attack about leaving their house after 6 p.m., it’s funny you should say that I live in a vault.
It’s a metaphor dear. It means that you’re so insulated from the realities of the world that you either haven’t ever been exposed to anything bad from men, or you’ve got on rose colored blinders where men are concerned, (meaning that to YOU, they can do no wrong, and are all faultless, sinless saints who are above reproach for any of their actions, no matter what they do, or who it hurts), and you can’t, or won’t see through them.
As to “unlike some other posters” I don’t know which other posters you’re talking about, as I’ve not seen one who posts she doesn’t like leaving her house after 6pm, but that sort of mechanism to attempt to deflect that which is true about you, is just beyond pathetic. It wouldn’t matter if every other woman on this board was as you describe. It doesn’t change what you exhibit here, that of being completely unrooted in reality. Or, as Guin says, “Jesus you’re thick”.
When someone points out a habit or fault of yours, and you attempt to deflect it with “well YEAH, but HE/SHE does worse” it’s just childlike, completely ineffective and changes not at ALL that you do in fact have that habit or fault.
Well, that’s utter bullshit. The thing is, when individuals do something shitty, I try to blame the individual instead of looking for patterns and groups to generalize and hate.
I live in reality. Every day. Do you?
You may think that it’s a fault. You could be (and in this case are) wrong.
Who the hell claimed to be an expert on men? I certainly have not! I only know my experience with these SPNG (which are not the same as honest to goodness, genuine nice guys-a lot of our male dopers are of the latter!), and that they can call themselves “nice” all they want. It doesn’t mean they are.
You know, I’m gonna remember this the next time you go bitching about how ALL of your co-workers who have children are self-absorbed, baby-worshippers who only care about their off-spring and leave you all the work.
Recognizing a specific type of person when he/she comes up and knocks you over the head idoes NOT = “looking for patterns to generalize” etc.
More than you apparently, since you have absolutely no ability to recognize distinctions such as the above. But to answer your question, yes. I live in reality. I have two jobs, one in fitness, where I see hundreds of different people a day, and teach 50 different students each semester. And my other job in the environmental field, where I deal with men and women of every walk of life.
Like others here have said, I’ve NEVER seen anyone like you, who was so completely insulated against having run into a “type” of person before. You’ve never met the “blowhard braggart”, “golddigger”, and the “gangsta wannabe” just to name a few? And met them often enough to recognize that “type” the next times you meet them?
If you haven’t, then you’ve either lived a very sheltered life, tucked away in a vault (and no, that doesn’t mean that you PHYSICALLY aren’t out in the world). No matter how much you are out of your house, if your MIND refused to open, you’re still “in the vault”.
Trying to deflect what YOU have done or said by complaining that someone else has done or said worse is a fault.
As is the inability to comprehend the written language, an antiskill you have Exceeded in in this thread.
You’ve not read the posts people have made here further, you’ve twisted or made up what people were saying, and then attacked them on the basis of what you made up rather than what’s ACTUALLY being said, and instead of trying to **understand ** what really IS being said.
Let’s try that again…instead of trying to UNDERSTAND what’s being said. You’ve decided, within your own imaginary world, that men are being attacked here. You have no basis for this accusation, other than that you’ve misread and misunderstood what others are saying, but you don’t want to be confused by the facts.
If you’d come down off of panic red alert mode long enough to make sense and be logical, you might be able to see that. But you refuse.
What you’re doing isn’t disagreeing with a point. Were you disagreeing with what we were ACTUALLY saying, you’d find people reacting to you as they reacted to Aeschines. We understood and respected his points, even though we disagreed with him. And when we expressed a disagreement, he addressed THAT point. Not his imaginary translation of that point.
What you’re doing here is imagining an argument NO ONE in this thread is making (that of us supposedly thinking any nice guy is automatically suspect to name one), and arguing that, even though no one has argued that which you’re attempting to dispute. That’s not bad, it’s not evil. But it is a fault, albeit one that is more detrimental to you than it is everyone else.
Oh! I’m starting a latin class in January. Which is your favorite? So far I’ve only done a little cha-cha and salsa, but I’m really looking forward to learning how to move my hips like you latin dancers. I’m stuck with a super-stiff Ballroom form right now, and I’m so excited to be getting rid of it.
I don’t think it’s possible for you to disagree with me without attempting to paint me as some kind of closed-minded sheltered freak. Have you never considered the possibility that I just don’t agree with you? Disagreeing with you does not automatically make me an idiot, nor does it entitle you to tell me what I think or what my experiences are.
You’ve claimed that I am incapable of believing a man could ever do something wrong. I know you had to have read at least one thread in which I mentioned that I’ve been raped.
Quite frankly, the hardest part about responding to you is trying to figure out what the fuck your quoting system means, and either getting a whole hell of a lot of CAPSLOCK and very little substance, or occasional but erratic use of bold. This fits so well with your pig-headed insistance that I lack experience in the real world and that I have deliberate blinders on, since it indicates to me that you are stuck in a stubborn spiral of ‘catsix disagrees with me, therefore she is an imbicile’.
Come to grips, for cryin out loud. I disagree with you. I think you generalize and you look for patterns in men that have to be really broadly defined in order to work at all. I think you mislabel people and are so defensive about your mislabeling that you are simply unable to accept a difference of opinion. I wonder if you’ve ever really read a flippin thing I’ve said. I wonder if you see the username at the top of the post and automatically get wild with the mouse so you can cut and paste and respond to whatever it is you think I believe.
Way back when I was in college (more than 15 years ago), I had several housemates that I’d consider the female equivalent of the Self Proclaimed Nice Guy [sup]TM[/sup]. I don’t see her around that much anymore, but maybe some oldsters like me remember her. She was the Self Proclaimed Too Smart Girl[sup]TM[/sup] (SPTSG). This was the girl who claimed men were intimidated by her intelligence and that was the sole reason she couldn’t get a date.
In reality, her intelligence was never the problem. Mostly she was trying for guys who (for various reasons) were out of her league or (like the SPNG) she had a really bitter, nasty, resentful attititude towards men.
She’d see a man with his girlfriend and declare said girlfriend to be a bimbo. “See,” she’d say, “all men want bimbos.” Often these girlfriends weren’t bimbos, the SPTSG would just decide they were. Sometimes the girfriend really was a bit dim. However, in those cases, the men weren’t dating her because she was lacking in smarts. Usually, the guy was a bit shallow, the girl was really pretty, and the guy was willing to overlook her limited mental capacity.
Oh, I’m sure there were a few men out there who truly were intimidated by smart women. However, I doubt there were ever all that many. Most guys I knew liked a woman who was intelligent.
In their defense, none of us ever corrected the SPTSG. We didn’t want to hurt her feelings and we weren’t mature enough to realize we weren’t doing her any favors in the long run. It didn’t help that movies and TV at the time often showed women pretending to be dumb to get a guy. It really didn’t work that way, but no one told the SPTSG.
I sometimes see the same thing happening with the SPNGs. I have a couple male friends who got the message (somewhere along the way) that they were “too nice.” It’s now stuck in their heads. It doesn’t help that women who reject them often tell them “you’re really nice, but I just don’t feel that way about you.” I’m sure the women are trying to avoid hurting their feelings. However, all the guy hears is “you’re nice/don’t feel that way about you.” So I think the OP was spot on in telling “Trevor” the truth.
Occassionally, I’ve tried to let these friends know what I think they’re real problems are. But it’s a really difficult conversation. They’re stuck in a “too nice/too nice/too nice” mindset and nothing will get them out of it.
Good try. Nope, just trying to get information to enter your thought processes. I find it interesting to see if it just might ever be possible.
I don’t think you’re an idiot because you disagree with me, or because you disagree with all of the other posters who’ve joined me in trying to enlighten you. I think you’re an idiot because you’re disagreeing with things we haven’t said.
But, to answer the rest of your question.
You’ve argued (for example, these are far from the only arguments we never made, that you’ve brought up):
1.) Not all men who say they’re nice are assholes.
Answer, from all other posters in here: We agree, we didn’t say that either. We’re talking about those, and ONLY those who do
2.) Men who whine and cling aren’t assholes
Answer from other posters: Yes, we agreed on that as well, no one ever said they were assholes. the man in the OP fell into the SPNG category because of his OTHER actions, not this one
3.) You can’t lump all nice guys into the same group.
Answer from entire group: you’re right, and we never did. So why are you continuing to argue something never even said by us?.
4.) Not all men who say they’re nice are really nice guys, but that’s no reason to be mean to the ones who don’t do that.
Answer from group at large: NOOOO!! Really?? Say it isn’t so. That’s exactly what we WERE doing, picking on those, and ONLY those who are self proclaimed nice guys, but in reality are assholes.
But yet, you continue to berate everyone in the thread for those things, when that is NOT what we are pitting, and arguing against.
As Guinastasia has said your posts are so laden with hatred of your own gender if any woman even so much as whispers some dissatisfaction, that this is the impression your OWN WORDS leave with people. Not shoes, PEOPLE. I’m just the only one who is stubborn enough to keep going and try to get to the bottom of this anomoly when all other posters have thrown up their hands in disgust at your thickheadedness and left.
Yup, and I’ve cheerfully cottoned to this offense, a number of times. I’m a coding doofus. I have no problem admitting my faults. As I say above, I’m tenacious to a fault. I have not been able to consistantly do a good job coding, I spend too much time postint at the SDMB when I should be doing laundry. My faults are endless. Nice deflection, but it still doesn’t change the fact that you’re arguing against things never said by anyone in this thread. So your “you just can’t accept that I, catsix, disagree with you” whine has no logical bearing on what I said to you in the last 10 posts of attempting to say that very thing.
Hmmmmmmmmmm… So bad coding abilities in an online chat board equal “no experience in the real world” in your mind? Interesting.
bolding mine. I don’t need to grip, I’m quite relaxed and entertained here. Again, recognizing a type of person does NOT = assigning to that person patterns and stereotypes. Second it’s not “my” shoes’ label, it’s the one used by most women out there in dating land in describing this type, and ONLY this type, of man.
If, in the course of your day to day life, you meet several people who exhibit the same unpleasant characteristics “office braggart or blowhard” for instance, or “golddigger” to name another which you never addressed.
After the umpteenth meeting with this sort of person, and after hearing others in your peer group referring to them as “office blowhard braggert” do you not then begin to recognize that type of person?
If you are not able to, by their actions recognize “types” of people, then you’re either lying, or so sheltered from the experiences of most other people out in the world that it’s YOU that is the odd one out, not the others in this thread.
As to the rest of that part of your post, asked and answered above.
Yup, every word. That is what I base my opinion of you on, your very own words. And again, you’re not disagreeing wtih us, you’re disagreeing wtih what you mistakenly THINK we said, when we didn’t, as shown in examples above.
The whole post is worth re-reading, slowly, carefully, with an open mind. hint hint (I know, I know, it won’t do any good, but a girl can try can’t she?)
Maybe you should stop trying to change me. I don’t know why you think that you should, or that you have any right to attempt it, but I do think you should give up.
I don’t apply an obviously incorrect label simply because that’s how a person refers to themselves. It sucks to be logical.
Read it. Will never agree with it. Give up already.
It’s kind of annoying to keep quoting long posts in their entirety just to say “Read this again.” This is the second time you’ve done it on this page. I’m not trying to junior mod or anything like it; I don’t think it’s against any board rules. It just annoys me.
You (yosemite, guinastacia, Canvashoes and others) have all been pretty clear as to the specific types of behaviors you are talking about—and you all have been clear to make sure that you aren’t talking about nice guys–but Nice Guys. So what the fuck is the problem?
