Why do you think she does this? Does she expect you (or you and your wife) to solve this problem? Is she fishing for compliments? Is she genuinely asking for help (set her up, direct her to couseling)?
Once again, REMEMBER the DISCLAIMER. We are NOT talking about ordinary actual nice guys. We’re talking of the self proclaimed Nice Guy (someone show me how to do the TM thingie :D).
Which is another issue entirely. Do some Some women end up with (not DATE, end up with, for again, no one is stupid enough to set OUT to get treated that way) assholes, and then whine about it?
Yes. But that’s not what this thread is about. It’s about how the self-proclaimed nice guy (who is really just a self-deluded version of asshole himself with all his blaming of women) when he sees a woman and starts the “all women only date assholes when Nice Guys deserve here more” painting of ALL women with the same brush thing.
Your statement was in answer to my post of:
Originally Posted by CanvasShoes
Similarly, if you’re a young, broke, socially inept, college student. Ditto, the Angelina Jolie lookalike head cheerleader isn’t really “in your league” so to speak.
To which you said:
And again, I have to say “SO???”. She’s either dating an asshole, or perhaps only dating someone who APPEARS to be an asshole based on the few moments you observe this woman and her lover in public. What on earth, whether he’s actually an asshole or just happens to be behaving like one (something everyone, even nice guys do once in a while), does this have to do with whether or not the self proclaimed nice guy “deserves” to “have” her or not? And yet he makes this the focus of his whines and complaints.
What if said object of his affections was completely single? And he got turned down by her? Self-proclaimed nice guys STILL do the bitter sarcastic like “oh, you’re probably waiting for the captain of the Football team huh? Sorry, I should have realized geeks like me don’t count cause girls only date assholes”. (and I have been the target of MANY such a rant from so called “nice guys” and all when completely single and with nary an asshole in sight).
Men who behave like that are painting half of the human race with a big ole paintbrush. And in the process, mistakenly believing that they are getting off the hook for both any shortcomings THEY may have in the dating game, AND that of having to do anything about it (such as learning appropriate social and dating behaviours and attitudes).
On the other hand, women who bitch about their ashole boyfriends, well yeah, they’re bitching and whining and they should leave the jerks, and if you’re on the recieving end, you have every right to tell them to shit or get off the pot…BUT they’re bitching about ONE MAN, not the whole sex as is the self-proclaimed nice guy.
I agree with this. It’s nobody else’s business who she goes out with. We all get to pick our friends, dates, and potential spouses. It’s our choice and nobody else’s.
If someone doesn’t want to date someone who is short, tall, pudgy, skinny, or whatever, they have that choice. Because for whatever reason, the particular quality isn’t attractive to them. They don’t owe the skinny/pudgy/tall/short person a date anyway. Same with this.
We all deal with rejection because of some quality we have. Sometimes it seems unfair, sometimes it sucks. Speaking as a fat chick, it’s unfair that people can be so mean (and they are mean) to fat people. I’ll be the first to say that. However, I don’t feel that I “deserve” a date with a guy who doesn’t find me attractive, just because the skinny chick he’s dating maybe isn’t very nice (or seems to be not very nice). It’s absolutely none of my business who anyone else dates. I might question some people’s wisdom in dating choices (to myself) but I don’t bitch because they look past me. They’re going to do that anyway since I’m obviously not their type.
Can we all agree that whiny-ass resentment is not particularly attractive?
Nope. They may be factors in how SOME women choose mates. But not in how women choose mates.
We’re individuals, with reasons and motives as varying as those of your sex. The comcept you describe above seemed to be quite true for a much larger percentage in decades such as the 70s and earlier, but are getting to be much less a reason for a woman to want a man in this day and age.
Which interestingly enough, is BETTER for women, and not so good for men. Isn’t that ironic? Money, power, rank, dominance projection USED to be much greater "equalizers’, (specially money and power) for men.
Nowadays women can get their own power, money and rank. Which basically leaves “dominance projection”. By which I’m guessing you mean sexual attraction for the most part?
So yeah, instead of being trapped by our bodies (once you have a baby it’s hard to go out and kill the mammothfor yourself, necessitating a strong protector), and society (we are no longer considered “bad girls” for working outside the home, wanting a career, good sex, etc), into needing someone to “take care of us”.
So now, basically we only need men for “medicinal” (evil grin) and emotional purposes. Which really, puts a HELL of a lot more pressure on men to perform. They didn’t used to have to be well-built, good looking, fun, nice or good in bed, just good providers, or powerful enough to protect and care for us.
Now??? whooo, and “all of a sudden” (only a handful of decades really when you think about it), a lot of stuff is expected of a man, that he never had to produce before. It’s not enough that he provide and protect anymore. Something that generally speaking, was pretty easy for a man to excel at in the good ole days.
Not rich enough? Put in more hours, get a better education which equalled a better job, which equalled more money/power/rank/dominance etc. All it took was what he already knew he was capable of doing. Working harder. Beating out the other guy.
Now, since a lot of men don’t “get” us and our needs, they’re totally lost in what to do, how to “win”. They’re used to fighting for things the male way. Solution, not emotion driven. They WANT to 'work" harder, but the work isn’t as simple as just putting in more hours, or studying harder for that medical degree. They’re being “judged” so to speak by us for what is INSIDE OF THEMSELVES, what they have to offer EMOTIONALLY and more importantly and more frightengly emotionally STRENGTHwise. And in addition, and yes, unfairly (but no more unfairly than us being constantly compared to Cindy Crawford and being rejected for it), being measured for their sexual attractiveness worth.
Yikes! A lot of us DO understand this, and empathize, AND go on to choose an ordinary, not Capitilized, nice guy. But, no matter how you wrap it up, or practice or whatever, sometimes the attraction is JUST not there for us, and it DOES NOT MEAN that we are rejecting you because we “all only want assholes” for Crying Out Loud!
Oh my GOD. Are you KiDDING me? You just sat there, AS A MAN, and reeled off a collection of stereotypes about your own sex. I’m perplexed, amused AND annoyed.
I know, from reading your posts in many many other threads, that you really do not believe that people fall into such easy, clearcut stereotypes. It’s perfectly logical that a man can be a geek AND big, strong and funny. That he could be that big, strong, funny geek AND be pretty much mature, and fairly self -confident with all the normal and reasonable human failings.
THAT sort of nice guy is NOT the subject of the OP however. We’re talking about the guy who makes a concerted, and quite verbal effort TO our faces, to put the blame of his datelessness squarely on OuR, not his shoulders, because as he repeatedly laments to us 'woman only date assholes and not mEEE heeeeeee" waaaaaaaaah.
And along with that exhibits other clear signs of really bad “Nice Guy” (as THEY proclaim themselves, not as We’ve labeled them) behaviour.
[ b]Guinistasia’s** post very accurately described the self-proclaimed “Nice Guy” in all his assholish, clingy, guilt trippin, can’t possibly EVER believe that you really ARE doing laundry and not just trying to escape from him, CREEPAZOIDS that they are.
Kudos to CanvasShoes for post #165 of this thread.
(Y’know, there may be something in that effort-results psychology to the proclivity of male geeks for such fields as programming, mechanics, engineering, etc. where they do not have to handle humans. After all, barring outright accidents or equipment failures, if you compute the right delta-V for your payload it WILL enter the intended orbit.)
Maybe what we need is for a whole reconceptualization of boys’ upbringing and socialization so that “having” “a girl” is no longer considered a major worth component, and it’s just something nice-if-it-happens that your very best applied effort only places in the “probable”. Maybe a hit TV/movie series where the hero saves the world repeatedly at great personal pain w/o ever ending in bed with anyone, babe or not (and is not played for comedic effect). 
Or teen comedies where the girl at the end ends up with NEITHER the studly hunk NOR the “sensitive” schlub 'cause she’s just not interested.
(BTW: to do [sup]superscripts[/sup] and [sub]subscripts[/sub], just do a []whatever[/ ] tag, where *** is sup or sub. I use them rather than “size=” tags because I have set my browser to NOT recognize most “size=” tags, as the ones used on the SDMB make it hard to read on my monitor)
Also, to Guinastasia for bringing up “Opposite Girl”[sup]TM[/sup]. They are indeed just as aggravating
Day-am! I needs me a passport.
Okay, I know what American Norwegian jokes are like. What are some Icelandic Norwegian jokes?
:dubious:
Mmm hmm, but please DO note that I said “a lot of men” not men, prior to going on to explain what that subset of men do.
I see your :dubious: And raise you a 
Good post. I agree with most of what you say, actually.
A very good book on a lot of what I’ve been saying here is Why Men Rule: A Theory of Male Dominance by Steven Goldberg. You may disagree with him, but the book isn’t just about opinion; he’s loaded it with facts, figures, and real scientific studies. Even if you end up thinking he’s totally wrong, you’ll still learn about what kind of information is out there. It’s also just an interesting read.
Comments on yours:
I certainly agree it’s not all, but I would say it would be “most.” I’m a guy, and I know that for a very, very high percentage of guys–whether gay or straight–looks and attractiveness are the #1 filter, a necessary condition for wanting to start a relationship (hookup or long-term) with someone. I would also say that the level of wealth a woman posseses ranks fairly low.
Tendencies, not absolutes.
Except that I don’t think that what men want (and don’t want) from women varies all that much. Good looks and a personality that matches their own. What they don’t want, generally, is a woman taller than they, much higher in caste, much higher in age and experience. In short, they don’t want a woman who is above them, or more dominant. They also don’t look to women to be providers, though economic reality means that most women have to work outside the home these days. (But it’s an issue when the woman makes more than the man, for dominance reasons.)
I think you’re very much on target here. Women can make their own money and live their own lives. They don’t “need” a man, quite right. This is definitely worse for men. But is this better for women? I’ll answer that in a sec.
No, if it were only that, there would be no problem. Dominance means one person being/seeming/feeling above another person. This is a reality that is both biological (hardwired) and socially constructed (but nevertheless exists in every society and always will, due to the hardwired part).
Goldberg in his book points out in his book that successful women still want men who are even more successful than they, and he points out the ironic example of powerful feminists who have all married very successful and dominant men.
A woman–as a very strong tendency–wants a man who is:
Taller than she
Makes more money than she
Wields more power than she
Is equivalently or more educated than she
Is in the same caste/social stratum or higher than she
So yes, as you say, women have indeed achieved a great deal more power and money and dominance in the last several decades. But this has also made it harder for those women to find men who are “good enough.” In turn, this reduces the number of women who are available for men. Both sides find it frustrating.
An interesting side note: One reason Asian women are so incredibly popular in the US is that they don’t project the high levels of dominance that American-born women now do. They are “nice and feminine.” (My theory, not Goldberg’s.)
Even so.
Yes, quite right.
Yes, because society supported that role.
And competing against other men, which was not so shameful as getting beaten by a woman.
Sadly, we’re not, I don’t think, dealing with a problem here that can be repaired, since the way society is now organized works against the talents of the average man. Men simply can’t provide the EQ that most women now expect.
Right.
Absolutely, the “women only want assholes” is a very crude way of expressing the underlying social reality. With a little refinement, it could be put like this:
Women, in general, want a man who is more dominant than they are. But women, on average, have increased their own level of dominance by learning more and earning more. Men have roughly stayed the same. This has decreased, as a proportion, the number of men who can satisfy the dominance needs of a large portion of the female population. This puts even a greater demand on male dominance, so that, now, women who would have passed up a cad (“asshole”) in the past go ahead and choose him because he projects some variety of dominance. These leaves both sexes unhappy: the men because they cannot get a woman as easily, and the women, because the men, while dominant, are nevertheless cads and assholes.
I am not stating the above with 100% confidence. It’s just how I see things based on the information I have. I’ve had a lot of female friends who couldn’t find decent boyfriends for years, or who are still looking. Actually, I am more sympathetic to the females out there, as it’s not just a matter of dominance; the selection of men out there generally sucks. Plus, another big factor is that men are less and less willing to commit because they can get sex without getting married.
In short, it’s a frickin’ mess. It’s complicated, and I’m certain that I don’t have easy answers as to what’s going on or how to solve it. But I do think it’s a deep problem, and I’ve found the bashing of a certain type of man in this thread to be negative and unproductive, that’s all.
It doesn’t suck at all if you’re wiling to get over the idea of wanting taller, older, more educated, better job, and higher income as paramaters.
Really? I’m 5’8" and men my height or shorter hit on me at least as often as taller guys. I love to go salsa dancing, and the Mexican men who frequent the latin clubs (and who I usually tower over) are always buying me drinks and asking me to dance. Maybe they have the benefit of non-American cultural attitudes toward height, but that wouldn’t make any sense from an evolutionary psychological point of view.
Great analysis. I can get behind that (I’m sure you are relieved and gratified to know).
However, how is our bitching unproductive? In this thread we’ve identified specific behaviors that need to change if a man wants a date and suggested more acceptable/attractive behaviors. If we were as gentle and tactful as you seem to wish, well, we’d get kicked out of the pit. In fact, Aesch, you’d better call me a heartless frigid bitch quick, before the mods catch on that we’re having a civil discussion. 
Nawww…a lot of times they just throw up their hands and sigh “poor me, all men are like this, I guess I’ll just have to settle for Asshole Boyfriend.” What percentage, of course, is up for debate, but stereotypes occur in both occasions.
So, only the men need to change, huh?
That was not a nice guy, he was creepy, needy and weird. Nice guys are men who have flaws, who have strengths, but who always treat you decently. END OF STORY.
If a woman cannot love a man who would treat her decently because he is not “manly” enough, screw her. If a man cannot accept the fact that some women are just not interested in how nice you are… too bad. There must be a balance. Women are really messed up in that they tend to be attracted to dominance (as one poster very well stated). Men, OTOH, will many times fall in the trap of being too dominant.
I believe this thread is a perfect example of why divorce rates approach 50%. Men and women just don’t know what the hell they want. They think they want what society tells them: beauty, money, glory, power, strength… but all they really want is self-actualization. Regrettably, few couples engage in the latter and henceforth, there will be very little emotional happiness for 75% of the world.
:rolleyes:
Did you even read the thread? That was my whole POINT! He was one of the “Nice Guys[sub]TM[/sub]”, the ones who insist they are unsuccessful with women because they are “Nice Guys”.
There’s a HUGE difference between genuine nice guys and “Nice Guys[sub]TM[/sub]”, which is what this thread is about! The guy I was talking about was not a nice guy, but one of those creeps who whine about how he can’t get a date because he’s a “Nice Guy” and women prefer assholes.
I am sorry I made you upset Guin. Actually, I could not agree more. I only used your post because while I was reading the thread, your post was the point where I thought I would make the differentiation. Although the PIT is about those “creepy nice guys”, I still think many men were posting about being typified as one of those creepy nice guys when they are really just nice.
It was not an indictment of you.
I don’t think it’s a cultural attitude but something that approaches universality, i.e., hard-wired. Although short men probably do avoid taller women, I think it’s more a matter of taller women not accepting shorter guys. But your data point is interesting and something to think about.
It’s cool and I thank you, but, again, I don’t think I’m saying anything that original.
I haven’t agreed with any of that. Death, taxes, and shitty dates, you know. But what I do find regrettable is that a guy like Trevor is not identified correctly. True, as described, he sounds like a total fuckin’ emotional loser. But he (and guys a little above him in quality) are the clay a lot of women are going to have to work with. Let’s give credit where it’s due: if Trevor is holding down a job, not additcted, managing his meager earnings responsibly, and not violent or a hothead–hey, that’s not so bad. So when I see women jumping all over that (with glee and disgust) I think, "Whoa, wait a sec. Let’s get this into perspective and look at it at a deeper level.
Nah, I’m more likely to go into a chat-room psychology and think you’re someone really hot and interesting who, you know, kinda likes me.
Sorry, I didn’t mean to be snarky. Just a knee-jerk reaction-because these nice guy discussions always raise my hackles.
(Mainly because my experience has always been that the more someone calls himself a “nice guy”, the more evident it is that he’s not. If you’re really nice, you don’t have to point it out).
I think some of the guys in this thread are thinking that we’re talking about guys who are nice, rather than “Nice Guys[sub]TM[/sub]”.