It would be really nice if match had a way to differentiate between the qualities of your ideal date and those of an acceptable one. I think most women who have very specific lists of how their date must be would actually be willing to talk to a wider range of men, but it is very offputting.
In my experience, when I email a woman who has one or two items that I don’t quite match (income and religion, usually), I get no answer. I get the impression those lists are set in stone for most people.
Don’t be so sure. In my experience, the checklists are non-negotiable.
My response rate is probaly 1:3 to 1:5 when I write to who I feel is a “peer woman” - someone that’s about as attractive as me, educated as me, educated as me, with nothing in her profile saying that I have any undesirable traits.
I’m 5’ 10". When I write to a woman who is asking for a amn that’s at least 5’ 11", I will NEVER get a response.
I just turned 40. When I write to a woman who may be 34 or 35, with an upper age limit of 38 or 39, I’ll NEVER get a response. Later, they post on message boards that all the email they get are from old perverts.
My income is in the $50K to $75K range. When I write to a woman who lists $100K as her lower limit, I’ll NEVER get a response. If it’s $75K, I’ll seldom get a reply. Jewish women, I’m pointing my finger at you! Stereotypical, I kow, but I think so many of them have had the “marry a lawyer/doctor” message hammered at them so hard, that an urban planner is pretty much seen in the same light as a Wal-Mart cart boy.
Religion? I’m converting to Judaism. If her profile doesn’t include a preference of “Jewish,” “Spiritual but not religious” or “Any”, the response rate plummets. Don’t get me started on the women here who MUST have men that are Italian or Irish.
I’m 5’ 10" and weigh 172 pounds; average build. When I write to a woman who is asking for only a slender or athletic man, even when she’s just “average” herself, I’ll NEVER get a response.
That’s not to mention all the checklists, mentioned by Martini Enfield, that you see in the profile text of many women; “must not be on any medication,” “must be able to join me in running a marathon,” "most not be over 35 and never married, “must have been divorced for at least two years,” “must be able to pass muster with my OMG bestest friends,”, “must be able to take off with me at a moment’s notice to a weekend in London,” “must have knowledge of classical literature and postmodern philosophy,” “must like every kind of food out there, and not be a picky eater”, and so on.
If it’s tough for me, I REALLY feel bad for black men. In the black WSM profiles, if shehas an intelligent profile that looks like it wasn’t written by a preacher, doesn’t have a lot of kids, and isn’t obese, her income, physical and other checklist requirements are quite often off the charts. Professional black women who are single, not overweight and don’t have kids: untouchable.
A number of posts in this thread talked about inflated expectations for the date. I’m wondering if there aren’t also inflated expectations of the response rates! a 25-33% response rate is terrific in my books (and I come from the direct mail world). Internet dating wasn’t “big” when I was single (15 years ago), but newspaper ads were, and I certainly didn’t expect anything like a 50% response rate then. And no, I never expected someone whose ad I answered to get back to me with a “thanks, but no thanks” reply. Is that what is considered proper etiquette on those sites?
I have had mixed responses to online dating. Last year I met three people on okcupid. The second person I met wound up becoming a long-distance relationship that lasted for a year. In retrospect I think I should not have so readily jumped on the idea that other people would be interested in me, and continue looking. The relationship lasted a year, and ended with feeling like I had a better handle on what I wanted in a relationship.
So last February I tried online dating again. First through okcupid again- I updated my profile, sent out messages to people who were recently online, and managed to meet several of them. First person I met was a polyamorist looking for a stable relationship, was a self-described ‘bad girl’. She was really sweet and treated me as if I was someone she knew for years, which was nice. However, she cancelled our second date, later confessed that I just didn’t seem ‘confident enough’ when I met her, which was kind of annoying; I was already aware the numerous pitfalls a guy can have meeting a woman under such circumstances: coming off as too shy, too desperate, creepy, too forward, talks about himself too much, etc. But oh well.
The second person I met was also a lot of fun, was a grad student and had a lot of energy. We went on two dates, but after the second date confessed that she didn’t feel any ‘spark’ in spite of the fact that she liked me in many aspects. This too was a little aggrivating, basically it boiled down to the one thing I couldn’t control.
Third person was also a lot of fun, and of all of them the woman who I seriously thought I could wind up in a relationship. I personally felt a lot of chemistry with her, we could talk for hours, she laughed at all the silly jokes and references I said, etc. However, she didn’t feel ready for a relationship (with me, anyway), it was kind of confusing, in the end she just plain wasn’t interested in me that way, later became obsessed with someone else (same thing happened with person #2) . We’re still friends, though. 
Fourth person I met via eharmony, which in spite of what some people think/assume is not solely inhabited by jesus freaks and breeders. Of all the people I met, she put the most effort into ‘dressing up’ which while not necessary it did feel nice she put so much effort in herself to meet me. I was interested in meeting her again as well, but she never answered my calls. Oh well 
Fifth person looked much older than her stated age, I mean a lot older, and I didn’t really feel much interest/chemistry when we met.
Sixth person, ok, I know I am going to be pitted for this, but looked startlingly like the actor Jeffry Jones, which kind of weirded me out. Worse, the ‘Ferris Beuller’ song was playing in the restaurant, which just make it even more awkard. It was a pretty dull date, and I’m not so sad that she didn’t call back.
I was frustrated by this too, but if you meet enough people, you find the pendulum swings both ways- that someone can seem interesting in a profile and through some communication, but when you meet them it is very dull/unappealing. All I can say is that it is really important to be yourself (obvious and cliched, I know) in the sense that any efforts to try to overtly impress your date can easily backfire. Right now I’m sort of taking a break from online dating and focusing on getting back into school and other things I’m passionate about. I’m still interested in meeting people, but for the time being I think it would be better for people to meet me via the things I am passionate/good at, rather than just on a profile in a website. I may go back to internet dating in the near future, though, who knows.
I found that when I was not very specific about my interests, Match.com sent me all sorts of profiles that, in all honesty, were not even close to what I’d be interested in. Even after refining my choices, I get a lot of these “outliers” - for example, I gave an age range of 30-45, and I get profiles for guys ranging from 23 to 55. I find that a bit frustrating, and a waste of time. I suspect at least some other women have had the same experience, and try to whittle down the choices by selecting a narrower range.
Not to pick on you, elmwood, but since you’ve written more than other in this thread - how is this different from some of the very specific things you said you were looking for? It may be unfortunate for you in terms of the demographics of your area, but I’m not surprised if people who want long-term relationships, maybe leading to marriage, are not flexible on this point.
On the subject of women who don’t respond - yeah, sometimes it might be because she’s too overwhelmed with responses, but sometimes I’ll bet they are not interested, but can’t figure out how to tell the guy without coming across as bitchy or any of the other negative terms brought up in this thread. Damned if you do answer, damned if you don’t.
So while all you gentlemen are looking in on this thread, maybe you can give me a suggestion as to how to answer this email I got today (edited to remove personal information):
Umm… :eek: This is coming on way too strong for a first communication, AFAIC, and it makes me uncomfortable. “I’m here and could be there if we decide I need be”? “See if we think there might be a future in this”? Holy Toledo. I haven’t even IM’d the guy once, and quite frankly I have no interest in doing so now.
Since this guy lives in Kansas, I think I’m safe in blowing him off because of the long-distance thing. But what if he lived across the river in NJ? How do you fellas suggest I turn him down without creating the kind of bad feelings you’re complaining about here?
I’m one of those women. First, I’m not inundated with responses. And my response rate when I write someone is about the same as yours. Women getting mailboxes full of hits may have been more true 10-15 years ago when there was more gender disparity on the internet and the sites were free. But today, I’m guessing that most women aren’t getting dozens upon dozens of letters. It’s probably like real life, 80% of the men are all trying to get the attention of 5% of the women, and vice-versa.
Those 5% have great odds; everyone else, not so much. I’m deep in the “everyone else” category. Most women are.
When I do get a wink or a letter (which is rare), I generally look very quickly at some of the information - for me, college, kids, religion, and age are the instant deal breakers. A year or two over my age ranges would probably be ok; but it isn’t a year or two, it’s men who are 15 years over the stated age range, claiming that they’re really immature and demonstrating their functional illiteracy. They get the old pervert label. The others are straight forward. I just checked, and last year, I got about one wink or letter/week on yahoo. I wrote back everyone who made it past the instant deal breakers. Want to guess how many?
[spoiler]3.
I’m not sure what the other 40-something were thinking “She said no kids, I have 5. But they’re short, maybe she won’t see them.” I don’t get it.
BTW, never heard back from any of those 3.[/spoiler]
You couldn’t be more wrong here.
Thank you for your nice note, but I don’t think we’re a good match. Good luck in your search!
Ultra-short, minimal-hijacking answer: Khadaji is right.
I’m looking at your profile right now through my defunct account… (and if you figure out & give away my username, I’ll kill you)
All in all, a very nice profile. Your looks aren’t going to turn off anyone. I wish you’d emphasized your geekiness–but that’s just me. You come on as trying a bit too hard, and as too desparate, but I probably would have written an email to you all other things being equal.
I have a friend in that area, and he says that he sees very few women in that area that aren’t of the trophy-wife-seeking kind… not surprising considering the dynamics of that area, really. I’d chalk your inability to find a date up to that. The fairer sex are greedy creatures, and rumor has it that the greediest of them lurk around San Francisco.
What he said. It seems like the note is coming down too hard, implying almost seriously that there’s something of a future, even if it just means a first date is in the works.
I’ll occasionally get a bit flirty, saying something like “Let’s run off to Vegas and get hitched by an Elvis impersonator this weekend!” but that’s only when I see a profile where it seems like there’s an obvious connection on every level. I hope that it’s seen as the flirting it is, though, and not the sign of a potentially obsessive stalker-type.
Oh, don’t get me wrong, I know that my response rates are relatively high, and I consider myself very lucky (better to be lucky than good and all that), but I just get the feeling that my response rate is due more to the medium than any message of mine. Which is to say that OKCupid as a site is a little more open and a little less of a meat market than Match, better structured to present oneself well, and as a result, people are just more willing to reply to e-mails. With that in mind, the more noob errors and bad habits I can kill before wandering over to Match, the better. (We need some kind of class here, seriously.)
And, guys, I’ve got to wonder what kind of sad sight we are that women like amarinth need to come in here and make up stories to make us feel better. Because I met her at a dopefest a few years back and trust me, the only way she has trouble finding men on these sites is if the servers overheat everytime they try and serve up her profile (which, granted, is entirely possible). 
Guys, consider that another reason you might not be getting answers back from women is because some people still assume that “no” means “maybe,” even when the turn-down is literally spelled out.
I took Frank’s suggestion and answered the fellow I mentioned in my last post. Because I thought that just two sentences was a bit cold after he had taken time to write a lengthier email, I sent him the following:
I thought that was pretty clear, no? I got back the following:
Later?? No. Just … no. Especially after I noticed that he shaved 10 years off his age, :eek: which is definitely a dealbreaker for me. If he writes to me again, I won’t respond at all, because it seems that any response is viewed as an encouraging sign… and it makes me less inclined to answer emails when I’m not interested in someone, at all.
Your fellow men are helping to ruin it for you when they do this. Help spread the word, would you please? We’d all be happier in the long run.
Umm… Oops?
Wow, he is spectacularly obtuse. You can block him, can’t you?
I can certainly understand why women would not want to send even a “no, thank you” now. I’d still appreciate it, but I have a sense now of why they wouldn’t.
I can block him, yes, although a part of me has some morbid curiosity as to how many more times he might write to me before he gets it.
This sort of thing is why, as much as I’d like a response from guys I send an email to, I don’t get upset if I don’t hear back. I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt and assume they are trying to avoid the same problems that I am.
Your post pretty much sums up my OP. Internet dating for men in an exercise in an odds-stack futility contest. Not impossible, but extremely difficult.
It looks like us single, lonely guys are pretty much stuck in the real world, doing things the old-fashioned way.
Right or left hand?
Stranger
Another match.com scare-off: “curvy”. I am curvy, dammit, and where I come from, that’s a compliment. It’s not meant to be a code word for obese, but apparently men believe that. I’m not “athletic” (yet) or “toned” (yet), but I’m not “large” (any more) or “ample” (any more). Curvy is perfect, yet I know it’s a faux red flag for a lot of men.
My best feature are my shoulders. Combine that with “curvy”, and well…you’d think I was in Shirley Stoler territory.
VCNJ~
Women use “curvy” as a code word in that way as well, which is part of why men respond by ignoring that descriptor. I’ve seen enough photos of self-described “curvy” women that it’s not an isolated thing.
The only way around it is to make a woman put in her actual weight/height/bust and for the system to calculate your height-weight proportions and assign it a word on an arbitrary chart. (It thereafter wouldn’t need to display her actual measurements, just the matching word.) Men could put in their waist/chest/height and it would assign something equivalent.
That would end up making people feel a bit more like a piece of meat to be evaluated — and one could still lie — but at least we’d agree what the words meant.
I did the Nerve personals thing for about a year and a half, and I would say I got 3 responses from about 30 messages sent out (I ran hot and cold), plus perhaps 20 women writing in to me. This resulted in maybe 8 first dates all told, none of which were hideous train wrecks, one of which resulted in a relationship that according to your calculations is about to hit its expiration date. But I did this dating in Jersey City and New York City, with a huge pool of single people and eccentrics and women who know how to get your attention. Even a moderately picky search would still get hundreds of results. (I mainly weeded out smokers and profiles that seemed like they were written by male inmates.)
I have a 6-year-old and weigh around 200 pounds, so I’m sure I got crossed off a lot of lists. I also lied that I was six feet tall: I’m exactly 5-11 and three quarters.
I know a number of women who’ve done this, mainly Nerve and Match, and I don’t think it’s easier for them. Instead of the overwhelming silence of judgment, a woman has the feeling she’s being rubbed up against on the subway every time she opens her account. The number of engaged and exciting responses seems about the same: too few. It really should work much better than it does.
I can also think of 3 or 4 people who’ve signed on to eHarmony and apparently nothing ever happens over there at all, it’s like the SETI of Internet dating. Someday in a thousand years someone perfect will contact you, an alien of appropriate height and weight who shared your love of shiraz and Tuvan throat singing.
I’d be curious to hear from anyone still using the Spring Street Networks thing since they went over to the “too expensive” pricing system and changed the name to something stupid.
Hey! I like Shiraz and Tuvan throat singing!