I could see some all-male gatherings devolving into a farting contest. But this presumes farting is more or less a constant in male-male interaction, like talking about money or sports.
“Hey Bob, see that game last night faart?” “Nope faaaart, I was taking the kids out for faaart pizza.” “Sounds like you got the extra faaart onions!” “Oh yeah, get a load of this faart fart…faaaaaaaaaaaaaaart”
Now admittedly I don’t hang with the manliest of crowds, but this does not resonate (pardon the pun) with my life experience.
I WISH people would hold open doors for others where I live. Occasionally my boyfriend holds a door open for me and then someone just behind me quickly nips out in front and dashes through the door without even a glance of acknowledgement. Cultural differences I suppose. :rolleyes:
In Korea, boyfriends hold their girlfriend’s teensy Chanel purses for them as a matter of course. Now that’s chivalry - the willingness to look absolutely ridiculous so your girlfriend doesn’t tire her spindly arms out.
The way I see it, the point of courtesy/manners/etiquette is mainly to make oneself not-unpleasant company for others to be around. Which begins with sensitivity to their sensibilities. If a woman expects a man to open doors for her, etc., the courteous thing is to do it; but if that in any way disturbs her, the courteous thing is not to.
Ok, I need to go to bed. I looked at the thread title and read it as “Is Cavalry dead?” and did a serious WTF until the words parsed right a few seconds later.
Seems to me that Chivalry and Equality aren’t good bedmates.
It’s not that. It’s the stupid thing where someone is going through a door and has to stop and look all around to see if someone else might possibly want to go through the door and stand there and wait for them.
If I’m half a hallway away some guy/gal could be going through a door and assume I expect them to hold it for me…I see them giving me THE LOOK so now I have to double-time it to the door and say “thank you” because seriously. The only reason you hold a door for someone is so they acknowledge you, don’t lie. And now we both hate each other in the guise of being polite and will have to repeat this endlessly for as long as we work together. Way to go!
That’s a little ridiculous, yes. But I wanted to confirm that even though you don’t like this kind of thing, you don’t actually stand there and berate people for holding the door open for you.
Soooo is it demeaning to offer help with a heavy object if the woman or man is less burly than you? Generally women are less burly but if I do see a woman with a mans body type then I probably wouldn’t.
Also is it okay to slam the door in the face of anyone who doesn’t appreciate you holding it? Everyone I’ve held the door for has taken it in the spirit offered and even held it for me at the next set but it does make me giggle to imagine some indignant ass cut off in the middle of a rant.
Anecdata: I am a woman who holds doors open for the people I’m walking with if I am the first to get to the door, and I have had guys refuse to walk through the door before me because apparently it would not be chivalrous.
Whaaaat.
So yeah, I’m going to fall in with those who say it’s only respectful if you’d do the same for a man you respect.
I believe a true gentleman is a man who treats everyone with the same courtesy, and yes I do think true gentlemen exist throughout the world.
Now my only problem is figuring out what you call a woman who does the same thing. ‘Gentlewoman’ just doesn’t have the same ring to it, since it seems to describe outdated ideas of femininity. However, I also don’t feel comfortable calling a woman ‘gentlemanly’, for obvious reasons.
If a lady wants me to open a door for her, she will let me.
Addendum: Propping open a door after you pass through it is courteous, not chivalrous. It’s only chivalrous door-holding if you find yourself standing still, door in hand.
Whenever we went out to dinner, my dad would have to hold the door to the restaurant open. If you got to the door first and held it, he would forcibly “take over” as the doorman. It was a “pecking order” thing for him, sort of “I’m the patriarch, so I get to be the most chivalrous.” And then, when the waitress came to lead us to the table, he would guide people in the order they were supposed to walk in, with him bringing up the rear of course. His position was mandatory-- even if there was a reason for you to lag behind (like the time I was tying a shoe and said “You go ahead.” Nope, he stood there and waited, and pushed me ahead of him, so he could be last).
From centuries back, it’s always been that the person standing is lower in rank than the person sitting. Standing is a less comfortable position than sitting, and the highest-ranked person should always have the most comfortable position. So it’s quite natural that standing up has been a sign of respect. “I am not in higher rank than you, thus, I won’t be sitting when you’re standing”.
In the really old days, only the very, very powerful, like royalty, received guests while still sitting down.
One thing I haven’t seen mentioned is that women being able to give birth to a child. Do men unconsciously respect women a tad more than men because women can give birth?
I mean, I have no idea what a woman truly goes through physically and mentally during pregnancy and birth. I can read about it. I was by my wifes side during pregnancy and birth. But, I have no idea what she actually experienced.
Seems women deserve a lot of respect for being the only ones able to do it.
On the one hand, it bothers me when women get all worked up because someone was polite to them. Jeez - get over it already. I don’t know a man out there who opens a door for a date who thinks she can’t operate the handles herself. On the other hand, as noted upthread, people should be polite to everyone because it’s the grease that turns society’s gears.
I think most of common courtesy (holding doors, giving up a seat to someone who needs it more, etc.) is, well, common. Or at least not going to raise an eyebrow. But standing when a woman stands and pulling her chair out likely will lead to a bit of awkward confusion.
When my husband and I went on our first date, we did this weird dance of switching sides of the table because apparently he was trying to pull my chair out for me and I assumed he had decided he wanted to sit in the seat I was about to sit in. So, out of common courtesy, I tried to move. Out of common courtesy, he moved to get my seat. Out of common courtesy, I moved out of his way. When I finally realized what he was doing, I thought it was really sweet. But it did cause a few moments of awkwardness before the realization set in.
I’m glad you made this distinction. I’ve always thought of the ‘reaching back and holding open the door after you’ve passed through’ thing as chivalry lite. As in, you’re not important enough for me to have interrupted my forward progress by standing by the open door while you pass through first, but I’d feel weird about letting it slam in your face behind me, so you get the reach-back.
I used to work with a guy who was ‘chivalrous’ to the point that it made others uncomfortable. The doors into our office building from the parking lot were two revolving doors side-by-side, and two swing doors, one on each side. If a group of us happened to be going through the revolving doors, he’d stand aside while the entire group went through before him, then he’d bring up the rear. One day one of the C-levels was in the group, and after we had all entered the lobby and were waiting for the elevator, he mentioned that when it came to revolving doors, the generally-accepted chivalrous behavior was to go through first, not last, the idea being the man should be the one to push the door so the little lady could avoid getting her hands dirty as she daintily walked in behind him. That pretty much threw our coworker into a tailspin to the point that he always tried to lead us through the swing door thereafter.
And if I approach a door at the same time as a woman who is in the process of giving birth, I’ll stand aside and hold the door open for her, conventions be damned.
Respecting your own wife for giving birth to your own children, yeah, totally-- or respecting mothers in general, as on Mothers’ Day (or fathers in general on Fathers’ Day). That is giving respect to women who have chosen to experience pregnancy and childbirth, if you think that is warranted (and I’m not saying it’s not).
But respecting *any *woman in general for having a uterus? Not so much-- again, that’s an aspect of her anatomy that she had no choice in and may never intend to use to carry a child. It would be like giving automatic respect to men for the ability to (more easily) pee standing up: would you feel like you deserved respect for that?
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And if I approach a door at the same time as a woman who is in the process of giving birth, I’ll stand aside and hold the door open for her, conventions be damned.
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The idea of chivalry dates to the Middle Ages, and if you think about how women were treated back then I bet you’ll see that respect for women has nothing to do with chivalry. It also really does not have anything to do with how you treat a woman who is not pregnant. A woman doesn’t need extra help sitting down in a restaurant just because she could theoretically become pregnant, and in any case I presume you would do the same for your grandmother, so…
