Thanks ** Demise **. It is nice when things work out in the end. She is, and has been, the ‘one’ for me, the true love of my life, and I honestly don’t know if I ever would have married anyone else. I had tried to track her down, but it was like looking for a John Smith living somewhere in the US…
If my life were a movie, people would have been asking for refunds about 4 years ago, and there would have been no one left to see the steamy sex scenes at the end
And incidentally, I agree with **andymurph64 **; my case is the exception. You simply can’t be a good friend and a romantic interest. Being ‘nice’ is being a good friend. Being ‘not nice’ is knowing how to be nice and friendly while still keeping yourself open as a possible love interest. Remember, I didn’t tell TLOML (the love of my life) that I digged her in a viva la difference way until the very end of the two years we knew each other. Had I been less ‘friendly’ and more ‘boyfriendly’, perhaps we wouldn’t have spent the last 10 years wandering the singles wilderness.
To follow up a bit on andymurph64’s comment - having a ‘romantic motivation’ DOES NOT merely equal ‘want to have sex’.
My experience almost completely mirrors andymurph64 - when I stopped the ‘nice guy’ thing, it was almost stupidly easy to date women. Does that mean I was looking for a quick lay all the time? No (well, OK - I wasn’t going to be pushing anyone out of bed). But the point is I went out a lot, met a lot of great people, had fun, got to know a few people really well, yeah I got laid every now and than, but that’s really not the point.
I must respectfully disagree with part of your advice CanvasShoes. I think your advice of just living your life and letting a love interest find you is not the best route.
Finding a love interest takes work. You cannot just sit back but must pursue.
Until I was 30, I went out on few dates, didn’t lose my virginity until I was 24 and had sex with only one woman.
After 30? WOW! What a change!
When I turned 30, I decided my life wasn’t going according to hopes in some aspects and decided to do something about it.
It wasn’t just being more aggressive asking women out. I spent about 6 months going on a self-improvement kick. I lost some weight (wasn’t much overweight but lost some), lifted weights, jogged, went and got contacts, tanned in tanning booths (work keeps me pale), found some elevator shoes to add height (I’m 5’8"ish), dressed better and bought myself a better status car. This wasn’t to just attract women but for health/career/feel good purposes also but attracting women was a main reason.
During this self-improvement kick, I practiced asking women out. Shot down many of times but would experiment and try to get better. I think it worked.
It took about a year to get cooking, but when it did…WOW!
well, miller, you may rest assured that the gals are being very bitchy to you. you just don’t see it. she is laughing at you behind your back and telling everyone else how she gave you the gate with the old let’s be friends thing. when her friends laugh at this, she will go into her imitation of you crying your eyes out because no one loves you and she will then imitate you turning into a homo because you missed out on the big prize (her). all of her friends will have a great time at your expense.
Wow, handsome harry, you sure know how to cheer people up! :rolleyes:
I agree with Primaflora and the rest, it’s possible to fall in love with a best friend and get married. My ex-wife did it, for example. It’s just too bad she was married to me at the time she fell in love with her best friend. (I’m not joking, if you should think that’s scarcasm.)
But don’t let that put you off Miller. If I’m reading this thread correctly, it’s either a really good idea or a really bad idea to date your friends. Love remains a game that people like you and me still don’t understand how to play. If anyone finds a rule book, let me know.
Thanks for the back-up, Andymurph64. (I seem to recall agreeing with you on another thread or two. Great Minds and all that. ;))
And I cannot echo more fervently what Dragon Ash’s SO told him (lovely story btw!)…women do not like making the moves. Even if they make them on a subconscious level, i.e., the whole sleeping-in-underwear-with-male-friend etc…they do not want to be perceived as sluts. They like to be pursued and they know that men enjoy pursuing. Men will generally take any sex that is offered to them…but will (and this is a generalization so please don’t think I’m impugning anyone here) more often than not hold it against the girl later. It’s the whole “If she threw it at me, how many other guys caught it before I did?” theory.
I have known many girls who do have an initial crush on guys who are following the Be A Friend First theory…and even go so far as to “sleep over” and “hang out” and basically date the guy under the “just friends” clause…but they wait endlessly for the guy to make the first move. And when it doesn’t pan out, eventually they move on and find someone who will…filing their friend under Permanent Friend.
Which ties in nicely with the whole Nice Guys Finish Last theory. Again, this is not to be taken as advice to be an asshole…just to be a little more clear on your intent, and a little more aggressive in your pursuit of women.
I am a former sufferer of NGBS (“Nice Guy But…” Syndrome), and I think I can offer you some hope.
With enough rejection, the “Nice Guy” aspects of your personality may eventually become less obvious, and this can result in dating.
I followed some of the advice I’ve read in this thread, and it took less than two hours for the Straight Dope to answer my personal question of “What am I doing Friday night?”. I now have a date. I knew SD was good, but I didn’t know it was that good.
Ah, well, either you misunderstood my advice, or I didn’t write clearly enough what I meant.
When I say “stop looking” that does NOT denote “stay inside your house and wait for ‘the one’ to come knocking on your door”.
What I meant, when I said “stop looking,” was to stop the completely obsessive search that some people seem to immerse themselves in when looking for their significant other.
This kind of “tunnel vision” that some people indulge in regarding the search for a love interest can be counterproductive in the extreme.
And I think that in my post I DID touch upon the “finding a love interest takes work” part. Hence my “research, reseach, reseach”.
Yes, of course one must get out there and do the work. What I meant was don’t let “doing the work” consist of the same desparate search in the same desparate ways.
Learn new hobbies, join new things, etc etc. When DOING these new things and hobbies you will meet people, some of them girls.
However, do NOT look at each of these girls as a potential mate, try to see us as people first, get to know us.
I agree to a small extent but still think we mostly disagree. Not completely sure though.
It is my opinion that people can only concentrate and do well on at most 3 things at one time. If you try to do more, you will not do them well. These 3 goals will change over time but should never exceed 3 IMO.
Career should be one.
For the OP, finding a love interest should be another.
Health/self-improvement kick should be the third. It is good for you and helps you succeed with the other two.
If you add more hobbies to the list, then you extend beyond the three and have a much greater risk of failure. Your advice of going to new places is good but not to find a new hobby. If you show up at a new place that sounds good, spend a meeting there and no available women are there, dump it. If it sounds interesting, go back to it when you have found your love interest and are looking for a hobby. Remember your three goals of the time…
NO! NO!! NO!!! Do NOT spend the time ‘getting to know them’ first! The OP has enough women friends, he does not need more. Making ‘just friends’ is not the goal.
When you meet a woman you might be interested in, spend 5 minutes TOPS talking with her and then ask for her home telephone number. If she gives it, then call her up, ask her out and get to know her. If she doesn’t, forget about her. Do not waste time with her. You don’t need another friend at this time.
The mistake that a lot of Nice Guys make is that they think it’s important to get to know someone well before asking them out on a date. It is not (and I learned this the hard way). The date is where you find out about the person. If you try to find out a lot about the person before you go on a date, you’re looking at a ticket to the Friend Zone, frustration, and Rosy Palm and her five sisters on a Saturday night.
I don’t know if I’d agree with the “five minute” rule, but I certainly would agree that a guy should not spend a lot of time talking before asking for a phone number.
How well you’ve gotten to know someone before dating is not any indication of future compatability or the fate of a relationship. I once spontaneously made a pass at one of my best gal pals, someone who I really was just friends with before, but had started to see in a new light. That relationship lasted only two months, and the friendship hasn’t exactly been the same since. By contrast, I met jeevgurl at a picnic at which I didn’t really speak that much to her. We’ve been together six months now, and are thinking marriage.
I wouldn’t say that the OP doesn’t need more friends (mainly because I think you can’t have too many), but what he certainly doesn’t need is a lot of friends for whom he is harboring romantic feelings. Friendship is an end in itself, not a means to an end. Platonic galpals are OK if you’re not really interested in them (or them in you) and can be a great asset. If the galpal is someone in whom you are interested, don’t try and be their friend.
I just pulled 5 minutes out of the air so it’s not a hard rule. My point is to do it quickly and used 5 minutes to denote by quickly I don’t mean an hour. Also, when you do call her up (and please, only call her up if she gives you her number) do not spend chatting before asking her out. Ask her immediately.
Women know within the first .034 microseconds after seeing you if they will date you or not. They don’t need much time to decide and you will not be able to persuade them. Ask them and find out where you stand. Chatting on the phone/person and getting to know them before you ask will not help your cause and will most likely hurt your cause.
Wise words, IMO. However, women interested in you but not you in them are a great asset. Women know this from the reverse.
Just had to jump in and point out something that often gets forgotten (and women, let me know if you agree):
Women like to feel attractive and sexy (in a ‘Wow, are you ever attractive’ kind of way, to be contrasted with a ‘Hoo, baby, bring summa dat over here!’ kind of way). Friends are not attractive and sexy. Even the most attractive/sexy woman likes it when men make her feel that way (how many hotties complain that they can’t get a date because men find them intimidating?).
From my single years, I remember a certain type of man: attracted to you, but scared of being a jerk (which is perfectly respectable), and who therefore treat you like their sister. I knew that they were attracted to me, but any invitation would have been met with a ‘I value our friendship too much’ kind of reply. But I would have gone out (if only once) with any of them if they had made me feel attractive. (Again, to be contrasted with ‘if they had made me feel like all they wanted was a shag’)
There is a way to make a woman feel sexy without being an asshole. Every man has his own style (and that’s what makes him sexy). Learn to flirt, it’s fun even if you don’t get dates out of it.
(Remember: the object of flirting is to make you both feel good.)
And the moral of the story: I have several close guy friends (who may conceivably have been attracted to me but too scared to do anything, I’ll never know) who suffer from NGBSyndrome, and they have each met one woman who was so attractive, to them, and also attracted to them, that inveitably the feelings make themselves known. In other words, when the Right One comes along, it will be apparent to both of you.
(But if you get bored waiting, you can always flirt.)
Well, Andymurphy, you wouldn’t have ever dated me.
I never dated a guy that I hadn’t known. I did date some people I wasn’t good friends with, but they were always, at least friends of friends who’d I’d seen a couple of times socially.
Maybe Miller’s problem is not becoming friends, but waiting until he is pretty good friends - when the woman in question feels like the risk of ruining a good friendship outweighs the reward. Maybe a couple of group dates, parties, “hey, my friends and I are going to a movie, you wanna come?” (with a little flirting to let the girl in question know he is interested, a few complements to let her know he finds her attractive), and an accelerated romance schedule is what he needs. Doesn’t sound like he is any more interested in dating strangers than I was.
Gotta strongly disagree with the group date thing. A group date is a terrible way to try and get to know someone as an individual. People behave differently in groups than they do in one-on-one situations. And it’s harder to talk about personal things or have deep conversations when the others are around. Especially if they’re “your” friends.
I won’t deny that friends of friends are an excellent potential dating pool, (if for no other reason than to provide some insurance that the person is not a psycho), but if NiceGuy meets someone that he’d like to get to know better, he should ask for a home phone number (not work, not cell, home) and then call her and ask her out for a one-on-one date. It can be coffee, it can be dinner and a movie, it can be a trip to the zoo, but it should be one-on-one. That’s when people start talking and opening up.
You would be right. I’m not saying your method is bad. All I’m saying is that I gave your method 12 years of my adult life to work and it failed misrably. My method had dramatic success.
I’m a firm believer that a woman marks you very quickly (within 5 seconds) as to whether you are worthy to date her or not. After that 5 seconds, you can easily be knocked out of contention if you passed but it is very hard to be put into contention if you fail. All the talking, getting to know each other, humor, friendliness, whatever will not get you into contention if she decided you are unworthy in the first 5 seconds. So, stop trying.
I’m sure my actions caused me to miss people like you, Dangerosa but opened up many more possibilities. Also, after many years of drought, I wasn’t interested in women who were unsure if they wanted to go out with me.
I built up some confidence and decided that I wanted a woman that knew she wanted to go out with me. I didn’t want a woman who thought “Andy asked me out. Well, I guess I have nothing better to do so I might as well. I don’t want to be alone with him though!! I want to be with my nice comfortable friends so that I don’t have to open up to him and let him know me”. I want “Andy asked out! This is great! I want to learn everything I can about him because he is cute and seems so interesting!”.
I, and the OP and every guy, deserves the second one and not the wishy washy first one.
Picture this, Dangerosa…pick you favorite Hunk movie star (or whatever heart-throb you like). He sees you on the street, approached you, makes small talk and asks you out. Do you say no because you don’t know him? Do you bring along your friends so you can be comfortable and him not? Of course not. You let him know you want to go out with him.
I don’t understand why guys say women are so hard to read. I’ve found women not to be complicated. If they like you, they let you know they like you. They won’t do things to frustrate you because they’ll be afraid you’ll lose interest. If they don’t like you or are luke-warm, they won’t care. If they like you romantically, you will know. If they don’t, you’ll be unsure. So, if your unsure if a woman likes you romantically, she doesn’t. Simple.
Okay, it’s clear that I’m not making myself clear. (lol).
What I mean is, do NOT look at each woman you meet as a person who has such a huge potential of being “the one” to the exclusion of all other thoughts about that person and with all the inherent power of either “making or breaking” you regarding your success rate in love.
Too many guys (not just guys, too many people) do this, it’s as if they don’t even see us as people FIRST. We ARE just human beings, just like you guys are. Too many people just want someone, ANYONE, soooooooo badly that they don’t even pay attention to whether or not the ones they want (or think they want) are the right ones for them.
Too many people in this day and age are going for the goal (that of either getting laid, or getting married, or whatever) and almost completely ignoring the journey.
btw, I agree with the “exciting and new stranger” school of thought too. But I don’t think that that method has any more long-term success (even though it may increase the bulk numbers of women you date) than the old “best friends turned lovers” method, or the good old fashioned meeting someone through your everyday activities method.
You think like I do. Last week a friend asked how me how to let someone know that you’ve spent too much time with them lately, and want to spend less in the future. My advice to tell the person “Fuck off, I’m tired of you” was deemed to “mean.” Bah.
