Ladies, could you be a little bitchier? (Warning: whiney)

This is a subject that has been beaten to death on many messages. In fact, it’s past death. It’s not a dead horse, it’s a fossilized horse. But, in the interests of brevity:

  1. I once heard dating described as sticking your hand blindfolded into a drawer containing 25 live eels and a snake. If you’re lucky, the saying goes, you won’t get an eel. But then what do you have? This analogy has the advantage of gender neutrality, but does overlook the fact that Real Happiness is possible, albeit not the most common outcome. It’s more like a slot machine. In order to have any chance at all of winning at a slot machine, you have to keep playing. You may get minor payouts along the way, and every now and then you hit jackpot.

  2. A lot of people, men, women, chimpanzees, go through this whole “why do they all just want to be friends” thing. You’re not the only one. Dating is ultimately about rejection. A lot of it.

  3. There’s no entitlement to a date. People can reject you for all kinds of reasons, and there’s not a lot you can do about it. It’s one of those things, like televangelism or reality TV, that you just have to accept without truly understanding.

  4. Contrary to popular belief, it is possible to go from just friends to more than. However, contrary to what some people think, it’s not just take friendship, add sex, bring to boil and remove to low flame. And the fact that it can happen does not mean that you should become bestest buds before asking the person out. Or, perhaps to look at it from another angle, if you ask someone out that you don’t know very well, odds are that it will be viewed as a date. If you know them very well, it won’t have that same connotation, and then you put the other person in an awkward position when you reveal that, yes, you thought it was a date. Again, your mileage may vary, and there are people who have life stories that contradict this. There are also people who win the lottery. Doesn’t mean that you should dump your 401(k) and buy Big Game tickets.

  5. See #2.

  6. Every woman is different, so all you can do is be yourself and look for someone who isn’t bothered by that.

Thanks for all the advice and great replies from everyone. The number of replies from married women living on the other side of the country who think I’m swell is at once comforting and frustrating, if you follow my meaning.

I think I’d already pretty much figured out about the friend thing. My problem with that is, unless I get to know someone first, how do I know if I want to date them? I guess I’m approaching the whole thing ass-backwards. Sigh. Well, guess I’ll have to work on that.

Anyway, between venting in the OP and all the support you people have been offering (in the Pit, no less! You should all be ashamed at yourselves!) my immediate problem has been solved: I’ve cheered myself right up. Thanks again!

Same here. It was actually way sexier and more fun to realize that someone I liked so well as a “best friend” also got my motor running.

I have to admit, I was skeptical, but one kiss from him took care of THAT little problem.

I wouldn’t necessarily write off the girls who think that they are “just friends” with you, or think that you have to by mysterious and manly and an “unknown” to get them interested.

The “being good friends first,” IMNSHO, is THE best way to have a strong and lasting relationship.

BTW, it took me several LTRs and many years before I found “the one”. (several of my friends, who also fell in love with their “best buddies” say the same thing). So I have been through the “frustrated and angry” stage, try not to let it get you down.

I married my best friend :slight_smile:

I’m on the whole “married a guy I’d been friends with for eight years side and happily married eight years later.”

May I suggest you ask the question in a more obtuse manner so you don’t get turned down flat? Talk to these friends about your lack of success in dating. You will either get good advice from people who know you in person (“Miller, you are a nice guy, but have you heard of Listerine?”) or, one of them, someday, will say “I always thought you were datable.” That’s how I approached the hubby. My pick up line (as it were) after eight years of being friends was “How come we’ve never dated?”

Don’t know how old you are either, but in my experience, women (and men) get less picky with age. Suddenly, if your brother holds a steady job and isn’t going to sleep with your best friend, incest looks like a good deal.

OK, in the spirit of the Pit:

“Are you one of those people that gets confused by where carts and horses go?”

More charitably:

Dating is the journey, not the destination. It’s a process of getting to know someone in a particular way. Generally speaking, you should ask someone out when they don’t know that much about you. If they’re interested in finding out more, they’ll accept. If you spend time with them trying to get to know them better to decide if you want to date them before asking them out, you’ll enter the Friends Zone, and it’s harder (though not impossible) to switch out of that.

Remember, you’re just asking them to coffee/ dinner/ movie/ whatever. You’re not asking them to make out/ exchange keys/ move in/ get married/ bear your child. That stuff comes later.

You don’t. You pays your money and you takes your chances…just like the rest of us. If you encounter a dud, oh well. As jeevmon said, it’s a lottery.

To expand on my earlier comments: calling a woman and saying, “Hey, want to go see a movie with me next Saturday?” is not to be construed as a proposal of either marriage or uninhibited sex. If you meet a woman who so interprets it, drop her and never go near her again. OTOH, if you so interpret it (or project the attitude that you do), don’t be surprised if she gets a TRO against you.

Politely.

Seriously, if this is the only kind of refusal you have ever received, you are either incredibly lucky or are an excellent judge of feminine character. Women like this are NOT a majority, as I can attest first-hand.

On the other side, you could try to not be such good “buddies” with women, and make your attraction to them known before you get into the “friend zone.”

Or, if she is the latter type, send me her phone number! :smiley:

Okay, I’d also like to nominate jeevmon for providing the single least appealing metaphor for romance I’ve ever heard. “Usually, you end up with a handful of eels. But sometimes, you get a snake!” Jesus! If those are the only options, I think I’ll go join a monastery!

Primaflora and the others in the “best friends can end up together” school of thought are correct, of course…it can happen…but I wouldn’t say it’s the norm. And if it were working for Miller, he wouldn’t have so many female friends who think of him like a brother, would he?

So I don’t think it will harm anything for him to try a different approach.

When I first dated my fiance, it was very casual and very “friendly,” but I knew damn well it was still a date. He’s one of the Nice Guys most women put on a shelf for “later,” after they get the assholes out of their system, but I decided he was a keeper and we’ve been together for almost five years…and will be married in September.

In my experience, it’s not the chocolate that gets me into bed, it’s the kisses.

Still chocolate is nice.

The guy who came up with that one didn’t get a lot of dates. Can’t think why.

I prefer the slot machine analogy myself. It just seems more accurate.

Back in 1991. I met a girl, while in uni in Japan. Fell madly in love with her. Slight problem - she had a boyfriend. Bummer

At the time (and actually for many years afterwards) I was definitely in the ‘nice guy’ mold. So I didn’t give her the full-court press. We hung out together quite a bit, because we really were good friends. In fact, she often slept over, just the two of us, even. No hanky-panky (although I sometimes wonder what would have happened if I hadn’t been so ‘gentlemanly’). I wasn’t disappointed at ‘only being friends’. But I was also … not hurt. Sad, maybe? I don’t know what the emotion is. But I knew then and now that I was deeply, madly in love with her.

After a couple of years, I needed to move back to the States. And then I realized what that meant, and I did give her the full-court press, knowing that she had a BF at the time. I know, not nice of me. But I knew the guy, and he was a wishy-washy dork. But of course I was turned down. But we still remained friends, and in fact she stayed over my last night, helped me pack and everything. No hanky-panky, btw.

I moved back to the States, we mailed once or twice, and then, in between moves on my part (I went to Europe, then to HK and on to Tokyo), we lost contact. I only knew where she lived at uni (nearby apartment), and didn’t know her home address, etc. She knew my address in NY, problem was I wasn’t in NY anymore and mail wasn’t forwarded to London.

10 years pass. I of course dated other girls, after a while. Like the poster above, I stopped being so ‘nice’. Not that I don’t treat women with respect, I am still polite, etc. You can be polite and respectful and still let a girl know that you are interested in her as a female, not ‘just a friend’. Girls worth talking to understand that you can find them attractive and still have more than ‘I want to jump your bones’ on the brain. So yeah, I found it a lot easier to date women, and I dated several, fantastic, wonderful women.

But she was always in the back of my mind.

Last September, I get an email. Asks if I am the Sxxxx from uni in Osaka 10 years ago; she saw my name in the paper and was able to track down my email address (good detective work!).

By now, I was in NY again, not Tokyo. No matter. After a few months of emails - friendly, going over old times, etc., I popped The Question - would she like to come to NY to see me? I gave her an out - hey, you’ve never been to NY, I can show you around, we haven’t seen each other for 10 years, we can get drunk and re-hash old times, etc.

So she flew over. And we spent the next week walking about New York, talking. We laughed, we sang, we held hands, we slept together - still no hanky panky, but hey, I have waited 10 years, I’m a patient guy. And after a week, we woke up and she had to fly back to Japan. She cried and cried and cried.

And she told me how that over the past 10 years, she had kicked herself because she knew deep down that if she got too close to me emotionally, she would fall in love. And she kicked herself for not doing something, anything, that would have pushed us together. She broke up with her boyfriend at the time about five months after I left Japan - and sent me a letter, with some pictures of her - but I never got that letter. Could have had a very different 10 years if I had gotten that letter…

So we are at the airport, and she is crying. Says she still doesn’t understand what it was we were supposed to be. In fairness, here I was, living in NY, she was an only child from small-town Japan, and she has hardly ever left the town she was born in. We both have 10-year memories juxtaposed over each other as we are now - we have both changed a lot - she is even more beautiful now, if possible; I of course have less hair on top and a bit more gut a bit lower - but personality wise, I guess we changed in linear fashion, if you will - because being with her now is no different from what it was like being with her then. So much is the same - but so much is different, and we have been in completely different worlds.

She flew back to Japan, and we wrote back some rather chatty emails for about a week.

And then she wrote a long (long!) email telling me that she realized that she loved me. She had loved me for 10 years. And how sorry she was for taking so long to realize that we should have been together.

So I did the only thing I could do. I flew her back to NY.

She got in last Thursday, and no sooner had we gotten back from the airport to my apartment than we had ripped off each other’s clothes and engaged in some of the hottest, Honest to God Vulcan mind-melting, earth-shaking, religion-changing, neighbor-waking, Richter-scale measuring sex I have ever ever been a part of. Actually, this has lasted the better part of the 5 days, and - although I didn’t think it possible - it is actually getting better. Thank god I am moving into a permanent apartment next month, because we have gotten some really weird looks in the elevator…

So sometimes finding that special person takes time. Sometimes getting both people to realize it takes time. She rather shyly commented that a) she probably wouldn’t have stayed over at my house all the time 10 years ago if she hadn’t felt completely safe with me, but that b) if I had put the moves on her and given her a taste of what we were doing now, she would have dropped ‘the pencil-dicked dork’ (her words!) like third period French. Not that that was the reason she would have dated me; she understands now that she needed an impetus to move, and I, being the ‘nice guy’, wasn’t providing it; she, being rather shy by nature, didn’t now how to provide it.

Moral of the story? I don’t know. We found each other again really only by a fluke. Should I have put the moves on her 10 years ago? I don’t know. I finally asked her - and she said , “look - sub-consiously, I was practically begging you to do something - I was sleeping in your bed with you, in my underwear and one of your shirts. So while I respected the fact that you kept your hands to yourself, I was probably hoping you would do something”.

Doesn’t help much, does it? We were very good friends, but I had a major crush on her from the start. I was turned down; not because she wanted us ‘to remain friends’. Because she had a BF at the time that she wanted to be loyal too. Fair enough.

Should guys be ‘nice’? I don’t know. I think we should follow our hearts. Right or wrong, most women still wait for the guy to make a move, so it is up to the guy, in most cases. If you truly have a crush on someone (not just lust), I think they will realize that. And they won’t be upset or offended if you push a little.

Miller,

I am your patron saint. I was you and you were me.

Listen to Audrey and Rickjay. They speak wisdom. Do not EVER be friends or try to be friends with someone you are interested in. If things don’t work out, friends are fine if you’re interested in being friends with somone who rejected you. Dragon Ash’s experience is nice, but the rare, rare exception. For every Dragon Ash, there are thousands of guys being ‘friends’ with women they are interested in and wasting time, ego and heatache.

You say you wish to know the woman before you know if you wish to date her. WRONG!! That’s what the first date is for. A first date is like going to a job interview. You are sizing each other up for compatability/getting to know each other.

To elaborate on Audrey/Rickjay’s observations, guys feel that the best approach is to be friends and then move into romance. Rarely happens. You must approach the relationship from a romantic motive direction. Yes, you will be rejected often but it’s better to be rejected and know where you stand than waste time pursuing somone unavailable to you.

At age 30, I stopped the nice guy BS. It IS BS. It didn’t work for me and so I switched strategy. Within a year I was dating frequently. Stop trying to be nice and start going after what you want. Don’t be ashamed of it because there is nothing wrong with it.

I say the following with complete seriousness:

Ask a woman for her home phone number every week. Even if you don’t know her, ask her out. Go up to her, make some small take and then ask for her home phone number. If she gives it, call and ask her out. If she doesn’t, forget her. This will give you practice/familiarity with asking women out. It will harden your skin about handling rejection and it will most likely start to land you dates.

This idea make you uneasy? That is exactly why you should do it.

Just a quick addendum to andymurph64’s excellent points: When calling her, do not be like Jon Favreau’s character in “Swingers.”

(And if you haven’t seen “Swingers”, you should.)

I don’t know that either; I think this is one of the reasons I’ve never “dated”. The whole go-out-with-someone-just-to-find-out-if-I-want-to-go-out-with-him thing makes my head hurt tremendously.

I only know someone well enough to know if I’m attracted to him if he’s a friend. I find the whole “friend zone” theory a little odd, myself; if I were attracted to someone as something other than a friend, I would have let him know. (I know a lot of women don’t do this, but I can’t fucking figure out why not. My species perplexes me, and my sex perplexes me more than my species in general.)

I met my husband in a gaming store. Figured there was something about him pretty soon, let him know I was attracted soon after that; next day he happened to mention to someone while I was conveniently within earshot that he had a girlfriend. Well, shit. We continued to hang out, spend time together, all that stuff; eventually he tells me that he was looking forward to hanging out with me more than any time he spent with her. Then he couldn’t be bothered to tell me that he was interested for the next couple of months. :stuck_out_tongue: We sorted it out eventually, though. :}

Dragon Ash, thank you for sharing that story with us. It’s nice to know that sometimes it works out in the end. It seems so obvious now, doesn’t it? Just think, if your life were a movie, the audience would have been screaming at you for being so thick-headed. :slight_smile:

Very true Audrey. Though I don’t think those of us in the BFCEUT school are really saying that it IS the norm. More like, it’s a shame that it is not the norm, because people in this day and age tend to end up together just because of the “lust factor” and infatuation, and then find out they are totally wrong for each other (but that’s a whole other thread).

But yes, another approach is a great idea, I don’t think any of us were saying “hey, keep hanging on to the idea of turning a friend into a gf indefinitely”. (that wasn’t meant to sound bitchy, I hope it succeeded…lol).

At any rate, someone had mentioned something to the effect of the OP asking his current friends to give him pointers.

Something like what a person does when “flunking” a job interview, when one calls up the interviewer and asks what factors were used in choosing the “winner”.

It could be that he’s doing things to inadvertantly “turn off” girls without him being aware of it. It may not have anything to do with the “friend factor”. For one thing, people who are “looking” can tend to have that air of “desparation” about them. And that is guaranteed to send almost anyone of the opposite sex running for the hills.

IMNSHO? Research, research, research!!! Read books about how to meet/date/please (or be pleased by) the opposite sex. Join activities that interest you. Ask your women friends for advice, ask friends to fix you up. Go out in groups of people. etc etc. You know the drill.

The hardest to follow, but best advice? Stop looking. Just live your life. Have the most fun, do the most “stuff”. Party, be yourself. It’s when you stop looking that you often find that “special someone”.

Hey, baby, is that a Mars bar in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?