Well, andymurph64, for me you’d guess wrong.
I don’t know him personally; the answer is no.
Someone who asks me out cold when I don’t know him looks like a threat to me, not a date.
As Scott Adams observed:
The Dilbert Future, p. 113.
The whole idea is to increase the bulk of numbers. In a culture where guys still have to make the first move most of the time, dating is a numbers game because the odds of getting a first date with any particular woman are not all that high. If any single method had a proven track record, there wouldn’t be a proliferation of services, both online and offline, dedicated to trying to make the process easier.
(BTW, andymurph64, it seems like your posts are more than a little similar to ideas expressed by a dating advice columnist on AskMen.com. Coincidence?)
Yep, Andymurphy, I do. And I have (not movie stars, but really attractive guys). See, I’m one of those women with sexual abuse in my background. I don’t date strangers.
Something like 1 in 3 women have some level of sexual abuse in their background - maybe not rape or child abuse - but something that may make them tentative about going out on a date with strangers.
The point being, you can’t generalize. Miller will have to figure out a way of becoming romantically attached to woman that he is comfortable with. Then he will have to find a woman who responds to him and his method. You can’t say “being friends is a bad idea” because it doesn’t pan out. It may not give you the best chances of success, but it doesn’t seem like the chances are that low. You can’t say “group dates are a bad idea” because that may be what the girl you are interested in is most comfortable with - when its just you its a no go, because of some sensative issue in her past.
Yes you would. If he seemed interesting, cute, you were available and there was no/little possibility that you would ever see him again you would give out your number. If not you specifically, most women would.
If women have sexual abuse problems in their background, what would be so wrong about giving your cell phone number? There is no danger. Plus, would you want to date a woman that views all men as potential threats instead of possibilities? I would want a woman with a more upbeat attitude about men. The first date should be short and in a public place anyway to soothe this fear
Interesting. Damn you btw for wasting an hour of my time last night! 
He has very good ideas but my idea is much simplier and less thought out. It seems what I’ve been talking about is what he calls the ‘physical attraction test’ and the ‘closing quickly’. I also agree with him about the first date kiss and no group dating.
He also talks about not calling for a week (not sure I agree), never/very seldom saying ‘I love you’ to a long term partner (definitely disagree), not touching her but only her touching you (agree in first few months but unacceptable for me after that!). Also, what is so wrong about cell phones and also why the insisting you must pick her up at home? I can’t understand that.
His ‘method’ is much more thought out and complete than mine. I don’t agree with many parts of it but, IMO, it would be better to follow his advice than not if you are having trouble maintaining/getting long term relationships.
I’m very sorry about your history. No one should have to deal with that.
But your advice seems a sure ticket to frustration. “Keep beating your head against the wall- someday it will break.” Sure, sometimes it might work, but odds are that the wall will still be standing. And if the chances of success really were no different with the “become friends first” method than with others, there wouldn’t be a veritable cornucopia of message board posts, articles, commentary and general discussion about whether its true that “Nice Guys Finish Last” or “The Friends Zone.”
The point that we’re trying to get the OP to realize is that it is OK to ask someone out on a date that you don’t know all that well. Not that you don’t know at all, just that you don’t know that well. It’s OK to ask for phone numbers. It’s OK to make a move before you’re best friends. And yes, you will get shot down a lot, and that’s OK too.
We’re also trying to get the OP to stop wasting time on women that aren’t interested in him, and trying to get him to identify women who are. Getting a home phone number is an indication that a woman is interested. Not that she’s The One, just that she’s interested.
The OP seems to be fixated on dating as a magical state:
Another point that we’re trying to convey is that dating is not the destination, it’s the journey. Marriage, for example, is a destination, and therefore it is considered important to get to know someone before you marry them. But if dating is viewed as the destination, then the guy will keep his attraction secret until he “gets to know” the other person, building a deeper attachment to this person (possibly viewing her as “The One”) and then get brutally shot down when he finds out that they’re really not interested in you “that way.”
Sure, some women have unpleasantness in their past. It’s sad. But I submit that if a woman is so traumatized that she won’t give her phone number to a guy in whom she is really interested, or won’t meet him one-on-one in a public place, well, then maybe she has some deeper-seated issues that need to be worked through. And maybe that person isn’t in the healthiest place to form relationships. It doesn’t mean that they’re bad people, but it does mean that maybe they have to work through some stuff before they’ll be open to romance.
So interesting that you know so well what we’d do.
No, back when I was single, I didn’t give out my phone number to strangers. Phone numbers to strangers become weird guys who call you at 3 am because they are lonely. Phone numbers can be translated into addresses via reverse lookup.
There are certainly plenty of women who do or have dated strangers. I am not one of them. Lilairen is not one of them. CanvasShoes is not one of them.
You may have to change your methodolgy for the woman. Or just use the same method all the time and take what responds and assume the women who don’t respond would have never dated you under any circumstance - which is simply the wrong assumption - under different circumstances she may have responded differently.
Nice post Jeevmon.
Dangerosa, I spent until I was 30 doing it your way. It didn’t work for me. You have to understand that if you are a cute guy, you don’t need to do anything. Women pop up out of nowhere and everyone is trying to set you up. Most available women wish to date you and would be thrilled to go out with you.
However, there are those of us that don’t cause womens’ knees to buckle just at the sight of us. Whether we are ugly, fat, short, deformed or whatever. I personally think I am of average ‘looks’, not fat but am on the short side. Most women do not want to date me. Combine this with a lack of confidence, not having a nice car and a fair bit of shyness and you get a guy that gets few dates.
There are only so many friends of friends with which to ask out. Once those are used up, what is a guy to do? Remember, if you are a woman or a man that can successfully get a good % chunk of single, available women/men to go out with you, it is not a problem. There are 6 available friends of friends and your ‘hit rate’ is 50% that gives you 3 possible relationships? What about a guy with a ‘hit rate’ of 5%? (meaning that only 1 out of 20 single, available women looking for a date would accept a date with you). Those 3 aren’t going to cut it.
If this is the situation, do you see how your advice of getting to know them first is a big waste of time, heartache and energy? Dangerosa, you are probably attractive and would have a hi ‘hit rate’ for available men. Imagine if you didn’t.
oops, change ‘Those 3 aren’t going to cut it’ to Those 6.
andymurph,
If that works for you, great. I’m not trying to talk you into doing it “my way.” Just saying that there are different ways to make romance happen.
I don’t see how getting to know anyone is a big waste of time, heartache and energy. People are worth getting to know, even if nothing romantic comes of it. And if it is a waste of time, its no more of a waste of time than getting to know her over dinner, only to discover that you really don’t have anything in common - at least friends go Dutch.
My ex husband was not a good looking guy by any means. But, he had amazing success with women (including during the period we were married) - all who he took the time to get to know first. If he wouldn’t have taken the time to get to know these women first, they’d have turned him down flat. But when you got to know him, he was (and probably still is) funny, flattering, smart, made you feel special. A great flirt. For him, his only chance was letting his good qualities show - something that it took a couple of weeks of getting to know him to do.
The man I am married to now is not traditionally handsome. He is overweight (5’10" 245 lbs). He’s kind of funny looking. He isn’t so ugly I put a bag over his head when I take him out, but you get the idea. I knew him for something like nine years before we started dating, and he was attached to some woman or another for most of that time - none of them stranger dates - always a friend, or a friend of a friend. Once again, his best qualities are the ones that a woman doesn’t see in five minutes.
What doesn’t work for me (as a woman) – strangers asking for my phone number – does work on many other women.
What works for me – dating friends – does work for many women.
What doesn’t work for you (as a guy) – the friends first thing – works for many other guys.
What does work for you – “stranger” dating – does work for many guys.
The idea is to find a style of meeting people you are comfortable with that works for you - and then find someone who responds to that style.
Sorry, Miller, I’m New Here, and don’t know you and thus may be out of line, but Dangerosa’s thought above was the first thing that popped into my mind.
I’ve been out of the dating pool for 9 yrs now, but before I met my S.O., I used the “I don’t think of you that way” line on guys with greasy hair, bad breath, or some other undesirable physical or emotional characteristic that put me off them.
I’m not really that picky, but I DO know what I can stand to be around and what I can’t.
Other folks’ mileage may vary, of course, and for all I know, you could be Young Robert Redford returned. If so, all apologies.
Good luck – on the whole, a nice guy (especially if he’s witty and smart and not passive-agressive) is pretty attractive to me still.
I disagree. One should try many styles and not just one. One can ask out friends of friends, be set up, ask strangers, respond to ads, go to clubs… To lock yourself into one dating style is too restrictive.
I agree in general. However, the OP has enough women friends. He wants a woman love interest. Friends are not the goal at this time.
Dangerosa, I found it amazing you married two guys you don’t find handsome. You are unusual. I have met a few of you and am always amazed/pleasantly surprised to find women who do this (assuming said guy is not wealthy and you haven’t been beaten much with the ugly stick yourself ). My current boss is like this - attractive and living with a guy older than her, not handsome and doesn’t make much money but a good guy.
This is exactly what I’m talking about. She knows without even speaking to the guy and in a few seconds whether she will date a guy or not. If you fail this “physical attraction test” (to quote the weblink) you are out no matter what you do. So don’t waste your time.
You are right, trying many styles (assuming you are comfortable with them) will increase your chances. Even trying several styles on the same woman (many will turn you into a stalker).
I haven’t been beaten by the ugly stick. At least, I don’t think I have been. Since you are in Minnesota, maybe you’ll get a chance to find out if I ever make it to a local Dopefest.
Like Archergal, I was once asked out by a really nice guy that I just didn’t see that way. In his case, it was asthma. He wheezed. I just knew I couldn’t stand to lie next to that every night for the rest of my life - perhaps shallow of me. So yes, in his case, I knew within minutes it was never to be. On the other hand, he did have a friend…
Someone I don’t know is someone I do not know if I am interested in, andymurph64. I will repeat this until I get it through your skull if I have to. Some random stranger who thinks he wants to go out with me because he likes my face or my hips is someone who is operating way too fast and using selection prompts that make me uncomfortable – a threat.
Someone I know, have spent time with, have had a chance to figure out if he’s attractive to me, that’s someone who I’d give my phone number to – if he didn’t already have it.
Though I suppose someone who wants to ask me for a phone number or a date on first meeting is doing pretty good at confirming your “within five minutes she’ll know if she wants to date you” rule – someone who does that, I don’t want to be involved with.
Lilairen, I’ll keep repeating myself also! There are a very limited amount of women that know you to ask out. Once those are used up/reject you that only leaves women you don’t know. Spending much time getting to know a woman that will reject you is a waste. Asking for her phone number is a good way of ‘separating the wheat from the chaff’ and finding out if she is available or not. Sure, you may miss a few that would go out with you if they knew you better but the vast majority wouldn’t have gone out with you anyway.
Second note – a guy should never, never, never call a woman unless she gives you the number. Do not look it up in the phone book or call directory assistance.
Lilairen, I also think we need to define the word ‘date’. I prefered my first date to be short and in a nice public place. Coffee, dinner, whatever but not a several hour weekend affair. In fact, I prefered weeknight dates of, at max, a couple hours. This way both parties can get to know each other without it being a big affair. If the first date went well for both parties, then something more ‘official’ can be done next time.
I’m not sure if that is the best way to go but it seemed to work and maybe would satisfy you about getting to know him first?
Of course, I’ve been out of it for about 10 years so maybe I’m, ahem, dated…
I didn’t see the Twin Cities in your tag. I also live here. Work in Minnetonka, live in Shakopee. Used to live in Eden Prairie but my wife and I just built a house in Shakopee.
I’ve heard people use ‘Dopefest’ before and I assume it is a get together. How are they announced?
I wouldn’t know how to go about defining what a “date” is; I seem to have gotten both my mates without having to go through the hellish process. The only relationships I’ve had that started without an established context have ended badly with one or both parties seriously hurt; this doesn’t look like a good way to bet for me. I’m sure other people can make it work just fine, but I’m not one of them, and I don’t care to be.
You’re still positing that I would accept a coffee date with someone I didn’t know. I wouldn’t. I have met everyone I’ve had a successful relationship with – including my husband and my mate – in doing the sort of things that I was doing anyway. I did not have to go out of my way to spend time with them. I got to know them in that context, and our partnerships grew out of that context, complete with ready-made topics of conversation and central facets to the relationship.
(Meh. This may multi-post, I’m getting board glitches.)
Ahhhhh. The light clicks on. You are/were interested in men who are like yourself.
I preferred to date women who were different from me and learn about them. I dated a woman trial lawyer for awhile and she was fascinating. My wife and I come from completely different backgrounds.
It’s not exactly the most fun for those of us who are “askees” either.
We women get judged on our “rejection” methods as well. Another poster (incorrectly and rather presumptuously) stated that we WERE “being bitchy” that we were actually laughing behind a guy’s back and hi-fiving each other for a successful turn down.
Well, I’m impressed to have met at least one human being that can read minds. (heavy sarcasm).
The truth is, that we are JUST as uncomfortable when having to “turn someone down” as the guy is putting himself on the line in the first place.
And the “mind-reading” poster’s mentality is just one of the reasons why. We are often judged as thinking we are “too good” for the guy and so on and so forth…blah, blah, blah.
The truth is much more boring. Most of us want to be nice and don’t want to hurt someone’s feelings. But we aren’t some sort of experts in this game either!! (what makes you guys think that just because we’re female, we somehow have exclusivity to calmness under pressure or whatever?).
We turn you down the way we do, for the most part, because it’s the best we can do at the time and still try to be kind and decent to a stranger.
No WAY Andy!!!
Methinks you missed her point entirely!! She was talking about hygiene. If a person (male or female) won’t adhere to simple cleanliness, they pretty much oust themSELVES from social interaction with the opposite sex.
And again, INHO, it’s more a matter of we know whom we will not date within that “couple of seconds” rule. Whether or not we will date this person, or just have a conversation with him is generally a more in depth process.