That’s all. Just
Well, I know from experience which wife I am, and I’ll tell you a little story illustrating just how I came to know this: About 10 years ago, hubby was driving a limo part-time to earn extra cash. One night, about 2AM, he came home, crawled into bed, which woke me up and I got up to use the bathroom. I come back to bed, and, BAM, he’s like a freight train; loaded up and rarin’ to go. It may be the fastest sex we’ve ever had. After it was over, I said “What was that about?” Well, he was transporting some male strippers from a show back to their hotel. The men asked him where they could find some action. Hubby named a club in Baltimore, took them there and sat outside. Pretty soon, the men came out with a woman. Four men, one woman, in the back of the limo. They left the privacy screen down, and my husband was treated to an in-person show of this woman being passed back and forth. They offered to let hubby pull over and get some of the action for himself. He sure was horny enough to do it, but instead, he came home and had sex with me.
As to Aeschines assertion that looking isn’t much different than touching, I say this: I will sometimes turn on QVC or HSN because they have some really pretty jewelry. I like jewelry, and I like to look at it. But I don’t have the money to buy the jewelry, and I wouldn’t go rob a bank to get the money. Even if I knew I wouldn’t get caught. I wouldn’t do it because it’s wrong. Hubby, like all straight men, is hard-wired to look at attractive women and find them, well, attractive. In fact, if he sees a particularly good-looking one, sometimes he’ll even tell me about it. But he doesn’t do anything about it because that would be wrong. I’ll also say this: my husband has enough self-control that he doesn’t need me controlling him. And it’s a good thing, too, because I’m busy controlling myself.
I think **Aeschines’ ** *premise * is full of shit.
Stop over-generalizing, will you? Just because there are some jackasses out there doesn’t mean all men are. And I’ll say something that may get some girls riled up: there are **always ** signs when he’s cheating on you. No surprises.
Vegas: Yeah, I was supposed to tell him not to go to his only brother’s bachelor party? That would have been a great finish to our relationship, I’m sure, since he’s fairly family-oriented.
You don’t tell an adult what to do. I would never forbid him from these things. If the behavior got to a point that it ws making me unhappy, I’d a) try to fix it, and b) leave him.
Seriously. We’ve been together 8 years. He comes home every night at the same time. I know where his money goes. We rarely go out separately. Nearly all of our friends are mutual. We both like it this way. I encourage him to go out with his friends, because, I don’t want him to look back on this time and think “My girlfriend made me waste my 20’s.”
I look at porn, I get off thinking of other men, I don’t think that’s cheating. The naive and simplistic outlook you have of men is ridiculous. As for strip clubs, in all the time I’ve known him he’s been to two. Once in college, before we got together, and once at his brother’s wedding party. Where’s **Anastaseon ** when you need her?
I trust him, ya know? There’s got to be some level of trust. If he tried to tell me not to do something, I’d be pissed. If he trusted me not to do something that would make him unhappy, and trusted me to ask before I did it - “Does this make you unhappy?” then that’s what makes a relationship work.
I don’t know how else to tell you. You’re so convinced that men cheat at the first chance they get, I think that’s silly and I think you’re juvenile for putting such little store by all men.
First, this…
…made me laugh out loud and cringe at the same time.
Would I forbid my husband from going to a bachelor party or strip club?
No. That would be childish and controlling.
Would I express my desire that he avoid such situations?
Yes. A good marriage is made of honest communication.
This made me think for a moment, and quite honestly, I don’t think it applies all of the time. I know plenty of guys who have gone to a bachelor party out of a feeling of obligation to their buddy, or out of a desire to keep the groom out of trouble. Not to dry hump the stripper.
However, if my husband suddenly decided that all his Friday nights and spare bills were better served at the local strip club with some co-ed’s panties, then we’re going to reevaluate the relationship. That would be cause for alarm.
I’d not presume to speak for my husband, but I think he feels the same way, and that’s one of the reasons I love him. He often thinks of my feelings before his own. I do the same for him. That’s why we are married.
Hah!
I read through that last post without reading the poster name, and was left thinking…hey, you know tnat sounds like something my wife would say…hey Love! waves
Anyway, my Lady is spot on. We had a discussion about this not too long ago, when she was invited to a bachelorette party where there were strippers. Of course I’d never forbid her from going- but she knew that she’d have very little room to argue if a similar situation came up for me. That’s not somewhere we want to be, so she abstained.
We’ve talked about visiting a club together, so it’s not a general objection to stripping…but as a general rule, we play together or not at all. Of course, she’s my best friend, so that’s not ever an issue. Frankly, strip clubs are not my thing (I lived across the street from one of Philly’s biggest clubs for years, and it never occured to me to stop in), but I think it’d be fun to have her with me. I can us pulling an MST3K on the whole thing and eventually getting kicked out.
But on the whole, I lean toward Aeschines’ assessment, though I’d probably phrase it more diplomatically. I don’t see any hypocracy in saying that I trust my wife completely, and yet I would not want her in a situation with alcohol, a group of her drunk friends, and naked men. And I expect that she reciprocates the sentiment. And since we agree, we remain very happily married.
Yup. The bachelor parties hubby has been to (all before we were married, since his closest friends got married before he married me) have all been because he wanted to wish his friend well, not because he wanted to get off on the strippers. As I said in my previous post, my husband is a healthy American male who likes to look at good-looking women, but he wouldn’t go to a strip club just to go to a strip club. He’d much rather look at attractive every day women on the street. (And, FTR, he doesn’t ogle them when I’m around, and he wouldn’t even let on that he noticed if he believed it would bother me).
I must be incredibly naive then.
Irishfella is going to Vancouver for 2 weeks to stay with his best friends (who will be the best men at our wedding in September). I’ll be giving them $100 (Canadian) to buy their first drinks with, and we’ve come up with 3 rules (no arrests, no hospitalisations, no cheating).
Beyond that, I trust them, and since they were the ones who he spent most of his time with when we were in an LDR, they can’t do anything during the 2 weeks that they couldn’t have done during the 2 years we were apart.
I trust him enough to marry him, I’m not worried about trusting him with a few strippers. They’re just ordinary women wearing skimpy outfits for goodness sake, not mythical super sex godessess with awesome powers of seduction that render all men within a 30ft radius powerless to their charms.
I would not like my husband to go to a bachelor party with strippers or a strip club, but not because of the sex, but because of the objectification. He knows how I feel about anybody (man or woman) being dehumanized as a sexual object, and he knows that I don’t support those industries. I also don’t believe in harmless flirting or putting yourself in the way of temptation, and neither does he.
I think Aeschines makes many interesting points, especially about people kidding themselves. If 50% of people cheat, and you have 100 people responding in this thread, than statistically speaking, you have 50 cheaters in this thread. The math don’t lie.
So, trust your man if you know you can trust your man but don’t trust your man because you know you can’t trust your man?
Whatever.
My husband is an adult. He has lots of time when he can do things I don’t know about. He has opportunities to cheat. I can either freak out or I can trust him. Freaking out does nothing besides raise my blood pressure and piss him off.
That pretty much sums it up. I trust him because he’s given me plenty of reasons to, and no reason not to. I don’t want to spend that much time monitoring his activities and telling him what he can and can’t do; that’s just way too much effort for me, and so not worth it. I’d be making myself crazy.
I’d much rather have a relationship where we both agree on where the lines are and trust each other to respect the marriage; I married an adult, not an adolescent boy.
My goodness.
I find myself forced to say “I’m glad I’m not you Aeschines, but I’m gladder I’m not your wife.”
I can’t even imagine a world view in which all relationships are only about control. I can’t even imagine a world view based on the premise that you can’t ever really trust anyone, you just are aware that they haven’t done anything untrustworthy yet.
My sweetie is a rational adult male. I would have only minor trepidation sending him off to a bachelor’s party where there were to be strippers. He doesn’t spend every weekend and all his disposable income at strip clubs. He doesn’t spend all his free time masturbating to porn either. Just because a guy finds a hot stripper sexually arousing it doesn’t automatically follow that he will be filled with the irresistable impulse to bone her. As a rational adult, I expect him to be able to control his impulses. Just as he expects me to control mine.
My boss irritated the living daylights out of me all day today. However, I refrained from bitchslapping her. The last time I drove a car, people cut me off, tailgated and were generally aggressively annoying - somehow I failed to ram any of them with my car. I really, really like Girl Scout cookies. However, there are several boxes still in my home uneaten. I firmly believe that Chow Yun Fat as the nicest ass in the known universe, and yet somehow I restrain myself from moving to Hollywood to stalk him until he lets me touch it to my heart’s content.
This is because I am a rational adult, and able to contain my impluses.
I trust my sweetie. I trust that he will refrain from doing things he knows with crystal clarity (because I’ve informed him that so) would hurt me. This includes boning strippers and hookers. I also trust him not to hurt me physically. This does not make me naive. Trusting my partner to refrain from committing hurtful acts doesn’t make me naive - no more than you (presumably - I’m not actually sure of this upon reading your view of relationships) trusting your wife not to stab you in your sleep makes you naive.
Aeschines doesn’t really know what he’s talking about. First of all strippers aren’t prostitutes. You generally can’t just “bone” them. More importantly, your guy is not going to turn into some kind of sex-crazed lunatic if that’s not how he is already. If he was already a womanizing wanabe “playa”, chances are much higher that he will use the bachelor party as an opportunity for a last fling before entering a marriage of constant cheating.
On the other hand, if your man’s bachelor party is a week in Montreal, Rio de Janiero or Amsterdam, yeah…I might be like what the fuck?
The reality is, if your guy and his friends were capable of pulling off some kind of wild sex-fest, why would he be getting married in the first place? Why not just have fake bachelor parties every week?
Also, there are not ALWAYS signs of cheating otherwise guys would ALWAYS get caught, which they don’t.
Well, I think Aeschines is right on the money with most of what he’s said. He’s not bullshitting you, he’s giving you the Straight Dope ™.
You’re right, strippers aren’t prostitutes most of the time. But you’d be surprised how many of them do “private dances” outside of the club. And the longer I’ve been a dancer, the more intimate I’ve seen the dances become. The standard is dick grinding. I’ve seen it right in front of me thousands of times.
And I’ve been propositioned by the “nicest” of men. It never ceases to amaze me that they sit right there with a wedding ring on their finger and try to convince me of all kinds of things. I’m sure their wives don’t know they are out doing that.
So, I guess you have to think about your definition of cheating and discuss that with your partner. I think him getting a boner over some other woman who is grinding him is definitely cheating. It’s not the same as looking at porn or fantasizing about Angelina Jolie.
If he is in 95% of the strip clubs out there he is being touched on the genitals by another woman. Don’t be in denial about that. Add to that her breasts all in his face or crotch and you’ve got your trouble right there. Otherwise sensible men DO NOT behave themselves if they can get away with it. And more and more that is the standard.
It’s up to you to decide how you want to look at it. Personally, I’m too jealous-natured to ever be comfortable knowing my guy is going to a strip club. There’s a reason I picked him over other guys I’ve dated. He’s not the type to go, and I don’t have to worry about it. If he was that type, we wouldn’t be engaged. I’ve seen it too much and I know what goes on and I don’t need it in my life.
With Brainiac4 I’d be fine with it. And I have been.
With my last husband I wouldn’t trust him to go to my grandmother’s knitting circle.
There is something people are missing. If Brainiac4 wanted to go to strip clubs without me, by himself or with a few friends, on a regular basis, lights would be flashing, sirens sounding, and I’d be wondering what was up.
But a Bachelor Party is different. It is a right of passage. In every case I’ve known the guys who are going. I’ve been to one. For our group of male friends they are very ritualized behavior. Beer. Cigars. Strip Club. (Well, except for his geeky friends. They play Settlers of Caatan until 1:00 am in a non-smoking environment and drink 4 beers between twelve of them). They don’t happen often, and there is a certain obligation to go (although its an obligation on the scale of Pampered Chef parties, not an obligation on the scale of the actual wedding invitation).
I have behavior with my girlfriends - not all of it that is completely “faithful” in an idealized marriage. We don’t, to the disappointment of several of our spouses, have girl on girl orgies. We do occationally bring our marital gripes to the group to bitch about. We occational have long discussions about our favorite hot celebrities (geeks that we are, its usually authors). Its part of how we bond as women. I don’t see a bachelor party as being any different - except that there are nekkid women and a uninhibited opportunity to cheat. But, as has been said, a guy who will cheat doesn’t really need a stripper to push him over the edge.
There is a comfort problem with the objectification of women. But, over time I’ve talked to enough strippers comfortable with their profession - and realized that some objectification of the opposite gender makes for hot sex. So I’m willing to put up with some objectification.
By the way, Indygrrl, I’m sure your experience is true. But there was no touching at the strip club I was at. I know some of the girls who have worked there, and there is no touching. Nudes are under glass and the girls working the floor are in bras and panties (or something similar). Local laws regarding strip clubs (and the level to which those laws are enforced) varies by jurisdiction. In St. Paul, Minnesota, the strippers need to be in a “seperate room” (i.e. nudes under glass). In Minneapolis, they are in the same room, but no alcohol is served. I’ve been to strip clubs in Thailand where anything goes (and I have a problem with the objectification there, as all sex work in Thailand is not voluntary), and while there was certainly some touching, not all men were being touched. Most girls were working the pole, and the stage was not condusive to touching (as the guys laps were a good three feet below it.)
So in short, cite? For this: If he is in 95% of the strip clubs out there he is being touched on the genitals by another woman.
It’s not a question of trust-it bothers me. I don’t want someone else’s tits in my SO’s face-like touching them, live action whathaveyou. I’m not required to date or marry anyone who engages in behaviors I consider offensive whether it’s smoking or strip-club attending so I don’t. It’s as simple as that for me-there’s no point in trying to force someone to do something that you don’t like (i.e. stop going to strip clubs). I can tell them it really bothers me. If they continue on with it-it’s notice to me that they don’t take something that really bothers me into account. After that, it’s done.
Personally, I would rather keep myself in good enough shape that I can give said other person a show at home.
I agree with Indygrrl on this one. Having been a party girl and in on “guy’s nights out” for many years, I know firsthand that many guys will often try to get away with whatever they can. Sorry but I feel many of the women in this thread are deluding themselves. No one thinks their man is going to cheat until they find out that he does. And guess what, he’ll cheat on you with an uglier or fatter girl as long as she has big tits or whatever other feature he’s into, so it doesn’t matter how hot you are. I’ve seen it happen too many times. Personally I don’t want my boyfriend going into strip clubs (particularly with a bachelor party, where the behavior gets even more out of hand, and even more particularly places where prostitution is legalized). Anyway that’s my two cents.
Really? I don’t go to strip clubs all that often, but usually I mostly see a bunch of slack-jawed dorks droping $500 one dollar/lap dance at a time. But yeah. I guess I have seen some crazy shit. And my friends are pretty tame in the grand scheme of things.
What I’d like to know is does Aeschines’ wife know that he cannot – nay, must not – be allowed off his super-short leash, or else his terminally hormone-ridden self would start boning everything even vaguely female in sight?
And deluding us, if the earlier statistic is to be believed that 40% of married women cheat. Maybe statistics lie, and maybe they don’t, but if we take as rote that 60% of men are looking for a side dish, then nearly half the women in the thread are sampling the dessert cart as well.
Me, I won’t take it as gospel until I see what the numbers are all about.