It’s used in several different senses here.
“I know my husband so well that I’m sure he wouldn’t bone a stripper.”
“I’m just going to throw caution to the wind and assume my man would never do anything that I really don’t want him to do.”
Etc. etc.
I’ll be quick because it’s late.
I’ve been to A LOT of titty bars in my life… most all my life. I have dated and lived with dancers…A LOT. Many are really decent girls who can’t make enough at Micky Dee’s to go to school during the day. But, I digress.
When I and my wife got engaged I learned she had never had a bacheloret (sp?) party (not the first rodeo for either of us). I called around and found out when male stripper night was at a better local club, stopped in and made reservations for her group and stopped on the way home to get change for a $50 in one dollar bills for her. They had a blast and I thoroughly believe nothing happened. And by that I mean sex, I don’t buy into the “A lap dance is the same thing” crap. I don’t enjoy lap dances near that much. I mean penatration.
I have also had the privilege of hosting the bachelor party for several friends. Wild, all night, crawling home parties were NO One Got Laid! The groom and the bride were friends of mine. It happens all the time.
To the topic of stat’s. These usually are a “Have you ever cheated on a SO?” Well, many of us have in the stupidity of youth or some such in a past relationship but that does not mean the 60% of all men have/will cheat on their SO’s. It’s not that 60% of all men in realtionships today will be unfaithful in the current relationship.
I agree that you can’t control the actions of another adult and must trust them not to want to hurt their partner. I also agree that men are desirous to have multiple sexual partners (been there did that) but that does not mean they will have, just that they may wish to have. These are not great truths, newly discovered. But men, and women, make concessions to the relationship to make it last without fear or doubt.
I for one love the female form but will not do anything to hurt the woman I love. She doesn’t need to police me to insure this and an attempt to do so, without my willing compliance, would be pointless.
No. Attraction does not equal action. Sorry. Actually **having **sex with different women within a <culturally determined> span of time makes men polyamorous (or polygynous.)
We’re not “naturally monogamous”, nor do we truly lay claim to being socially monogamous - if we did, it would be one partner for life. No sex while dating, breaking up and having sex with someone else while dating, no divorce, no remarriage, nothing. We are as a culture overwhelmingly *serial *monogamists - having socially sanctioned sex with one person only for as long as that relationship is agreed to last.
But none of that, NONE of that, has anything to do with the OP. Whether or not monogamy is the default, the agreement or does not apply is completely irrelevant, and I’m not sure why you keep bringing it up. All of those words apply to deeds, not to attractions. So where your whole argument falls down for me is when you say that a man finding a stipper attractive is unable to stop himself from having sex with her, and that therefore it’s up to a women to chain him.
But I haven’t noticed you telling men that they shouldn’t commit rape. Or that they shouldn’t cheat, or that they shouldn’t go to strip clubs. You seem to be putting it all on women: don’t let yourself be raped, don’t let your man cheat, don’t let him go to strip clubs. You don’t seem to have any ideas for how men can learn to exercise control; you’re just telling women to batten down the hatches.
I’m not getting that from what Aeschines is saying. It sounds like he has made his own decisions for his own self-control for his own reasons. To me, it appears that he is questioning people who assume their man won’t cheat, doesn’t want to cheat, would never in a million years do something that many people (men and women) are obviously doing all the time, and not really examining either their belief systems or their relationships.
Aeschines, have you read a lot of Heinlein, by any chance?
Sure. Ain’t like he’s never seen porn or a stripper before.
You are wrong. And also, I’d wager, a survivor of some sort of sexual assault. Anyway, this mistrust of men to this degree won’t serve you well for relationships, feeling empowered/safe, or in life in general. Walking around with that much fear is a pretty crappy way to live. Have you considered counseling?
Meanwhile, you are, in fact, blantently wrong. But I suspect you haven’t seen much different in your life, and that’s sad. Get therapy, it really will help enormously. You don’t have to repeatedly end up in situations where you are a victim, nor do you have to walk around mistrusting every man you see. Neither is healthy, or especially fun.
Rape is an absolute evil. Don’t do it, ever. It’s wrong. Men who commit rape are scum, pure and simple.
“Cheating” is a relational concept with all kinds of baggage attached to it. Most of the time use of the term assumes traditional monogamy and Christian morality as its base. There is no absolutely wrong acting of “cheating” in my ethics book, either.
Nor is watching strippers wrong. Nor is jacking off to porn.
You seem to be the first in this thread to interpret my words thus, so let me start off by saying that that’s totally not what I meant.
As I said, there’s a difference between moral rectitude and wise management of one’s affairs. I’m not questioning the moral rectitude of women in this thread; I’m saying that they are likely managing their sexual relationships in a naive, self-deceptive fashion.
I haven’t considered the POV of the men at all. I would have separate advice for them. Mainly, if you have an explicit understanding with someone not to do something, then you probably ought not do it. And if you risk giving someone a disease (not to mention yourself), then you really ought not do it.
How’s that?
Which part of what I said is wrong? It’s all just common sense. OK, maybe only a smallish percent of men are actually willing to commit rape.
I’m a man, btw, in case you didn’t know.
I’ve never been sexually assaulted. I’m a man; I don’t fear men myself.
I think you think I’m a woman. Did you read the thread?
No, I would say that the desires mostly represent what is natural, whereas society has much greater influence on actual behavior.
I agree with all this.
It has something to do with the debate that has arisen from the OP.
Ain’t even close to what I said.
I’m saying that the women in the thread are advocating that relies neither on tradition (which would not have allowed porn, stripper, etc.) nor on their own personally crafted systems (the signs of having reflected deeply on the matter are not evident). There is simply the thought that seeing a stripper ain’t so bad, combined with the policy of letting him do so, combined with the psychological fact that “devastation” would ensue from his doing anything beyond looking, combined with the assertion that he would never do so.
My knowledge of psychology and human nature, fortified with some very simple statistics, tells me that the above is weak, tottering, and dangerous system.
There is no duty, however, for a woman to “chain her man.” Rather, she should pick a man whose behavior matches her needs in the first place, establish rules with him that are mutally agreeable, and verify in ways that are not themselves damaging that the rules are being kept.
Recently read his short story “They,” but I’m not really a huge fan. More of a Robert Sheckley fan.
Okay…
Come again?
Okay, I still don’t get what you’re saying. Am I to assume that you’re saying that it’s just women who get all uptight about men watching strippers or jacking off to porn, so if they don’t like their men doing it, they’ll have to train them not to?
Would have been nice if you’d started off that way, giving advice to both men and women. Instead, you just barged in with your (it seemed to me) “All men are dogs” rhetoric.
You know, it seems to me it wasn’t that long ago we Pitted msmith for making overly broad statements about how "ALL women do [this, that, etc.] (no pun intended). Now we have aeschines doing the same thing about men. He seems to be operating on the assumption that only men want to have sex with lots of different women. Speaking as a woman, he’s wrong. There are several men I know who I’m not only attracted to, but who would be happy to provide me with a night or more of what I’m reasonably sure would be mind blowing sex (not to mention other things!). I know this because they’ve made offers. I didn’t take them up on those offers because it would be wrong. The reason it would be wrong is I consider sex outside a relationship to be morally wrong and I don’t like violating my moral standards. I have danced so closely with a man I find very attractive that I’ve been aware of his erection, knowing that I’m the cause of that condition and that, if I say “Yes”, I’ll be doing a bit more with it. I said “No,” with regrets. I was single, as was he; he’s a good friend and I know him well. I know him well enough to know that, in a relationship, we’d be absolutely disastrous for each other. While I do get unbelievably horny sometimes, for me, personally, sex creates a bond between me and the person I’m having sex with and I won’t enter into that bond lightly. Sex, to me, is holy, powerful, and not to be indulged in lightly, although enthusiastically is good! 
Because of my religion and my faith, I do place restrictions on myself and I find the benefits of those restrictions far outweigh any negatives.
We also seem to be conflating two different things. Yes, current Bachelor Parties usually take place at strip clubs. However, there’s a difference between going to a Bachelor Party once a year or so to celebrate a friend’s marriage and going to strip clubs on a regular basis. As I said, not only would I not have had a problem with the gentleman I’m seeing going to a friend’s Bachelor Party a couple of weeks ago, I would have gone along, too, if it wasn’t for that blasted cold, not to keep an eye on him, but out of curiousity. If I found out he was going to strip clubs regularly, I’d be a lot more concerned.
On a more practical note, it seems to me that, if I can’t trust my SO at a Bachelor Party, why should I be able to trust him elsewhere? If a man is dishonorable enough to cheat (or, if you prefer, if his standards make cheating OK), he’s quite capable of finding an opportunity. Yes, the opportunity is a bit more obvious at a strip club, but opportunities are common. Degrees of honorability vary among men, just as sex drive. I have two male friends, both of whom are fun, attractive men who don’t generally lack for female companionship. One of them is one of the most honorable men I know. One of them, well, let’s just say he tries to be honorable, but gets bogged down in semantics. 
The former is one of the best friends I have. The latter, well, he’s a friend whose company and massages I greatly enjoy. I even did date him for a while. Now I know him better, I’ll say this about him. He’s a very attractive man and I’m sure he’s extremely good in bed; I also know he’s got a lousy track record with women and there’s no way I’d want to get into a relationship with him which means that I’m no longer interested in sex with him.
The gentleman I’m seeing goes off to photography workshops several times a year. If he wanted to cheat on me, he’s got plenty of opportunity and I wouldn’t suspect a thing. I also go away for weekends at times and I’m a bit more sure of my attractiveness than he is, not to mention I’m a woman who moves in somewhat geeky circles which makes it even easier for me to get laid if I choose. “If I choose” is the important part. Any man or woman can choose to have sex outside of a relationship; any man or woman can be strongly tempted to. I’ve spent years of my life celibate; I’ve spent fewer years in relationships where I haven’t been. I’ve enjoyed the latter more. I also know that I won’t choose to have sex with someone who I don’t know well enough to know how honorable he’s inclined to be, not only when it comes to sex, but when it comes to other matters. I trust the gentlemen I’ve had sex with not because we’ve been in relationships, but because of who they are. Bachelor Party, beach party, or boring old work, I’ve trusted them not to cheat on me and myself not to cheat on them because of the standards we hold *ourselves *to, not because of opportunity or lack thereof.
Does this make sense? It’s early.
CJ
What you’re saying makes a lot of sense to me, Siege, since you’ve pretty much mirrored my feelings on the the whole sex/love/relationship area. I can’t imagine having sex with someone I don’t have deep personal feelings toward. There are occasionally times when I wish I had engaged in casual meaningless sex in my younger days, more out of a sense of curiousity than anything else, but I’m pretty content with the way things are now.
I’m currently in a long distance relationship which, despite the fact that we don’t spend nearly as much time in each other’s physical company as either of us like, is very satisfying. She has occasionally mentioned that she has no problem with me being with other women, and once when I mentioned I was thinking of going to a party with some online friends she told me to make sure I practiced safe sex. :rolleyes: I’ve all but given up on telling her that I’m not interested in other women, as her past experiences with men have convinced her that none of us would turn down the opportunity to have sex.
This is primarily where I disagree. I believe you may very well be underestimating many of the posters in this thread. You seem to imply that if someone does not share your point of view, they obviously are relying on a weak paradigm that is not a product of deep reflection. I do not claim that this is your intention, only that your words could easily be misconstrued as such.
I appreciate that you have mentioned several times that it’s up to the people in a relationship to decide what is right for them. I feel that this has often been overlooked in your posts by other members.
Yeah, I can’t (and don’t) judge any person in the thread. My hot button has been some of the throwaway rhetoric that has been tossed into the thread. “Oh, my man would never do that, and relationships are about trust, and men are rational and can think for themselves, and if he ever did anything I could dump him anyway.”
Obviously, a caricature and mishmash of what has been said by various posters, any of which might very well have their situations under perfect control. But I don’t think these bits of rhetoric come across very well.
Yep. Again, the hot button is when people are willfully naive about human nature or the management of relationships. Know what you want, do what you must to get what you want (within the scope of absolute morality). That’s the sum of my advice.
You assume that no one in the thread is thinking deeply because people aren’t agreeing with you. And yet you’re not “judging” us? Come on.
There is no way on earth for anyone to demonstrate that they have thought deeply about this issue. I can say, “I’ve thought deeply about this issue” and that proves what? To me, your posts come across as someone with issues rather than someone who has thought deeply. My hot button is the type of sexist crap that puts women in burkas so that they don’t tempt those poor, helpless, hopeless men who just can’t control their own impulses. That’s one possible extension of the idea that men need leashes and women are naive if they expect men to act like responsible adults instead of dicks with legs.
Well, here’s the thing: when I say I know I can trust my husband, that’s not based on blind faith, it’s based on knowing him very well. We’ve had many conversations over the course of our relationship about fidelity, trust, whathaveyou, that give me a good insight into his character and a reasonable expectation of his behavior in a given situation. Did I explain all that? No, but I left that out because I didn’t feel it necessary to give every detail because it was in answer to a simple question. Had the OP asked for the reasons we’d feel comfortable with our guys going to a bachelor party, I probably would have said more.
You insult me and other women when you launch into this “All men are pigs just looking for a piece of nookie and you’re naive to trust them” without considering that there might have been a process of arriving at that trust. Unless you know the men in question and have reason to believe they’re untrustworthy, you’re just as guilty of making assumptions as you say we are.
Aeschines, it is your rhetoric that is lacking. You have generalized from yourself and people you know onto a set of individuals you don’t know. You don’t know my husband, as Geobabe pointed out, you know nothing of what he has done to establish the level of trust he has with me. You can not generalize to the specific.
Mmm hmmm. :dubious:
Dunno, to me that sounds a tad judgmental of the women in this thread. By your hammering this point home over and over, you are basically tell them, “you are trusting your man blindly without the slightest sense of who he is or what his history is like.” That’s kind of condescending, isn’t it? Why on earth are you assuming that the ladies here are all living unconsidered lives?
You’ve said, “If you can trust your man, trust him. If you can’t, watch out.” Well … these women have weighed their relationships and judged their partners, and have found them generally trustworthy.
And in addition to making sweeping generalizations about the women in this thread, you’ve done the same for guys: “All men are dogs who cheat when the opportunity presents itself.” You amended this to, “Most men are dogs who cheat.” Then you further whittled this down to, “many men are dogs who cheat … and it’s probably because their women haven’t strictly told them not to. Unless they’re just not into strip clubs and porn.” Oy.
The amusing part is that you keep excluding yourself, virtually claiming: “Ah, but I am not one of them. My wife doesn’t need to keep me on a short leash, unlike 99% of other guys. You see, I have high standards and think of the consequences and have self-restraint and consideration for my wife, whereas most men don’t.”
Heh. My, we think highly of ourselves, don’t we? Hey, if it floats your boat, keep telling yourself that you’re nigh on unique. I do that sometimes too. 
But seriously, since you’re insisting that people shouldn’t delude themselves, I think you might wanna examine whether you’re really so above the flock of your fellow men after all. Maybe there really are a good number of guys – at least 40%, and probably more since those affairs are probably not all due to strippers/bachelor parties – who share the ability to curtail their actions.
And while you’re at it, think about the possibility that maybe, just maybe, you ought to be giving the women here enough credit to presume that a) they’re intelligent and self-protective enough to take care of themselves, and b) they know their men a bit better than you do.
I’m just sayin’.