Ladies. Your man wants to go to a Bachelor Party...

[Aeschines]

@Siege

You know, it seems to me it wasn’t that long ago we Pitted msmith for making overly broad statements about how "ALL women do [this, that, etc.] (no pun intended). Now we have aeschines doing the same thing about men.

No, I actually quoted you a figure: about 85% (my estimate) of heterosexual men want to have sex with many women, and 15% find monogamy suits them fine.

He seems to be operating on the assumption that only men want to have sex with lots of different women. Speaking as a woman, he’s wrong. There are several men I know who I’m not only attracted to, but who would be happy to provide me with a night or more of what I’m reasonably sure would be mind blowing sex (not to mention other things!).

I’ve purposely avoided the topic of whether women are more or less inclined to monogamy than men. One argument at a time. It hasn’t really been relevent to this thread, either, since the women posting here have clearly said that they prefer monogamy and would be “devastated,” “hurt,” etc., if their men had sex with other women. Women who want monogamy and those who don’t still have to deal with the same pool of men out there, so it was efficient to zoom in on just what that pool of men is like.

[Aeschines]

Hey, Choie, please lend me that funhouse mirror you’ve got. I want to look at some threads in a new way.

[Aeschines]

For the record, I’m noting down all your handles and carefully preparing a chart of who said what in this thread so that I can judge you all, not just the various points and bits of reasoning as they appear. :dubious:

[wonky]

@Aeschines

No, I actually quoted you a figure: about 85% (my estimate) of heterosexual men want to have sex with many women, and 15% find monogamy suits them fine.

Quoting a figure that you “estimate” is called “making up a number.”

[Syntropy]

@Aeschines

For the record, I’m noting down all your handles and carefully preparing a chart of who said what in this thread so that I can judge you all, not just the various points and bits of reasoning as they appear. :dubious:

Well, at least you’re going about this in as scientific a manner as possible.

[Shodan]

@Maureen

Shodan, my opinion of you just went up several notches.

Oh, I’m sure we can fix that.

@Maureen

I think the question is largely situational. It depends a great deal on the respect and trust within a relationship. If you respect your partner enough, you’re not going to do anything to hurt them. And if there’s trust there, your partner is going to feel comfortable knowing you’re not going to do anything to hurt them. And vice versa, of course.

I don’t know if this is a distinction without a difference, but I don’t know if the answer to the OP depends on the relationship. That was sort of the point of my anecdote of “Clueless Shodan and the Friendly Hooker”. I wasn’t in a relationship at that point, at least not an exclusive one, but I still don’t want to hire a hooker. Not because of any relationship or issues of trust with another person - just because hiring a hooker would be wrong even for a single person. IMO.

On the other hand, maybe certain kinds of people gravitate to certain kinds of relationships. And that is what they mean when they say “marry someone who agrees with you on the important issues”. And I would certainly agree that you have a better chance of success in a relationship with someone who really shares your commitment to monogamy rather than someone who is only monogamous when he thinks you are looking.

A lot of it has to do (I bet) with what is shown to you as normal when you are growing up. I grew up in a family where the concept of adultery is not so much taboo as it is unthinkable. Not that it is so horribly wrong, although it is, but in the sense that it is taken for granted that it isnt even an option. Of course you don’t cheat on your spouse, or go to hookers, or hit each other, or whatever. Some things you just don’t do. And I wasn’t even lectured on it. It was just another of the bedrock assumptions of life.

And I assumed that everybody thought the same way, until I got old enough to know better. But I have never lost the feeling that thinking any other way is not the norm. Not if you know better, at least.

That sounds horribly judgemental, I realize. But on some issues I have never reached the point where I can shrug my shoulders and say, YMMV. At least for me.

Regards,
Shodan

[partlycloudy]

Wow, this thread got real long real quick. I’ve made it through the first page and there are just a few things I want to say. First of all, I pretty much agree with Aeschines on this. I have to admit I was shocked to see so many “trusting” women in those first few posts! I also agree with Indygrrl, and I think her experiences back up my personal theory pretty well: most men are NOT who you think they are/who you wish they would be!

I’m not in a relationship right now. Nope, I got out of a pretty shitty relationship a few years back. That guy was a piece of work and, looking back, I most definitely shouldn’t have been so trusting! My disillusionment was guided by the overwhelming desire to be with him, to trust him, to prove that he could trust me, and most importantly, I made it a point NOT to control him. In one of my previous relationships, I had been what most of the women here would probably call “controlling.” I didn’t like myself like that, and in my new relationship, I decided to just let this guy do his thing, and hopefully it would work out. Turns out that forcing myself to be “liberal” and “uncontrolling” about the whole thing got me a whole lotta heartache.

On the other hand, I don’t like being “controlling,” and I certainly don’t want my SO to see me that way. And sure there are guys out there that deserve to be trusted. But I really can’t see myself being okay with the idea of my SO going to a bachelor party with a buncha naked chicks there (and not me!). And hopefully my SO would understand why I felt that way. Granted, I wouldn’t want to be with a guy -period- if I thought he would cheat on me in a strip club or elsewhere. But I think preventative measures are in order here. I think I would rather live with the guilt of being somewhat controlling than to live with the fear of wondering whether or not “something happened.”

As for the generalization that all men are degenerate sex-crazed man-whores, here’s my take: not all men are this way. But those who are usually don’t come right out and say it. If there’s an attraction there, usually us women don’t realize that the guys we think we can trust are actually pigs until the damage has been done. I’ve gotten this line from plenty of guys: We are all perverts, we think about sex all the time, we’re always thinking about banging other chicks, and if a guy tries telling you he’s different, he’s lying. Now, I’m not saying I agree with that entirely (see above). But I’ve seen the way guys talk when their womens ain’t around, seen seemingly committed/faithful men (along with obviously unfaithful ones) cheat on their wives/girlfriends, and act completely normal about it.

I guess what I’m saying, in a really disjointed and probably nonsensical way, is: I wouldn’t want my SO to go to this bachelor party because it’s a dangerous situation, I’ve been burned before, and hopefully my SO would understand my sensitivity about the subject.

That said, I have a friend who worked in a strip club (more anecdotal evidence here). She had plenty of stories to tell, including a tale of a married man who lived in Boston that frequented her joint on business trips, and apparently took quite a liking to her. Affair ensued, blah blah blah… I wonder if that guy’s wife knew he was cheating on her. I doubt it.

Besides, those of you who have been to strip clubs: don’t you find it kind of icky to look around at all those guys with their mouths hanging open looking like desperate fools? I wouldn’t want to picture my hubby in there with his eyes glued to some other girl’s jiggly butt.

[Dangerosa]

@LoganDear

That said, I have a friend who worked in a strip club (more anecdotal evidence here). She had plenty of stories to tell, including a tale of a married man who lived in Boston that frequented her joint on business trips, and apparently took quite a liking to her. Affair ensued, blah blah blah… I wonder if that guy’s wife knew he was cheating on her. I doubt it.

Besides, those of you who have been to strip clubs: don’t you find it kind of icky to look around at all those guys with their mouths hanging open looking like desperate fools? I wouldn’t want to picture my hubby in there with his eyes glued to some other girl’s jiggly butt.

I’ve been working in corporations for a long time. And I can tell many stories where married men take a liking to their coworkers and affair ensued, blah, blah, blah. Still let my husband go to work.

And no, I don’t find it icky (I think he’s more of a breast guy though). I find plenty of things people do in regards to sex and sexual attraction “icky” but I’ve learned that your fetishes may not be to my taste, and mine may not be to yours. For instance, I find men with long hair to be icky…but apparently many women find this attractive.

[partlycloudy]

@Dangerosa

I’ve been working in corporations for a long time. And I can tell many stories where married men take a liking to their coworkers and affair ensued, blah, blah, blah. Still let my husband go to work.

And no, I don’t find it icky (I think he’s more of a breast guy though). I find plenty of things people do in regards to sex and sexual attraction “icky” but I’ve learned that your fetishes may not be to my taste, and mine may not be to yours. For instance, I find men with long hair to be icky…but apparently many women find this attractive.

Well, I’m not really talking about differences in personal taste with regards to the type of men we’re attracted to, more about the types of behavior we’re willing/not willing to tolerate (or I guess whether we think of it as “tolerating” at all). And I’m not aiming to offend anyone. Heck, if you like that kind of thing, go for it. Just sayin’ I wouldn’t want that to be my guy, and I do find it a little disheartening (okay, a lot actually) to see that kind of thing going on. (BTW, by “my guy” I don’t mean to imply a sense of ownership, in case anyone was thinking about nit-picking there)

As far as the workplace example, I’m absolutely not denying that people have affairs outside of bachelor parties (that’s what happened to me, after all). BUT, under that kind of pressure, in that kind of environment, I can see how a guy that might not normally cheat (in the workplace/at the grocery store/wherever else) might let the booze/women/pressure get to him and cave. I say why provide an opportunity for something like that to happen? Maybe it’s just me who doesn’t like the idea of my hubby (a concept that doesn’t even currently exist) getting a lapdance from some other woman. And that’s fine. Hopefully I find one of those guys who doesn’t like to get lapdances from other women, and we can live happily ever after.

[Tranquilis]

@Sauron

My wife and I have a fairly simple test when it comes to social behavior. We ask ourselves, “Would my spouse be comfortable with me doing this?”

This is great wisdom. Read it, learn it, live it, folks.
No one holds my leash, save myself. I give myself all the sack I need, but no more than that. I try to avoid trespassing on others, most especially my wife. If I act to hurt her, even if she does not know of that act, then I have injured my relationship with her, and thus, injured myself. At the end of the day, it is my hand on the leash, and I keep a firm grip.

[Geobabe]

@LoganDear

Maybe it’s just me who doesn’t like the idea of my hubby (a concept that doesn’t even currently exist) getting a lapdance from some other woman. And that’s fine. Hopefully I find one of those guys who doesn’t like to get lapdances from other women, and we can live happily ever after.

No, it’s not just you. I know it’s easy to get the impression from threads like this that most women are OK with it, but I know a lot of ladies who would lose their shit if that happened. Everybody has different sexual mores, it’s for each couple to work out what they’re comfortable with, and hopefully you’ll find a guy with similar values who will either not enjoy seeing strippers, or respect your desire for him not to see them. The only thing most of the gals in this thread have been trying to say is that we’re not necessarily stupid for being OK with our guys going to a bachelor party where there’s a stripper.

[fluiddruid]

@Aeschines

You’re right that most guys are going to look at porn and talk about hot chicks. It’s also true that most men want to bone other women at some point. One thing that prevents them is the preventive measures that you take.

No amount of preventative measures is going to keep a man from cheating.

Oh, sweet heavens, this so naive. Any relationship has elements of control to it; sexual relationships are topped with great big globs of control sauce. If you every argue with your husband and one of you gets upset if such and such condition is not fulfilled, then you are operating in the area of rewards and punishments, and control is at work.

Control, obviously, is a matter of degree. However, there is a difference between saying “become a serial killer and I’ll leave you” and becoming a nagging harpy who has unreasonable demands. I’m sure you understand the difference.

Men are indeed capable of making their own decisions, and many of them will decide to do things that you do not want them to do.

I guess I’d rather know, then, so I can move on.

Why not buy him a whore if that would make him happy too? Because that would be naughty?

Did I say I wouldn’t? If certain safety issues were resolved, in certain situations I would consider it.

[inkleberry]

@Aeschines

Which part of what I said is wrong? It’s all just common sense. OK, maybe only a smallish percent of men are actually willing to commit rape.
I’m a man, btw, in case you didn’t know.
I’ve never been sexually assaulted. I’m a man; I don’t fear men myself.I think you think I’m a woman. Did you read the thread?

So, do you lump yourself into that category of men who would rape?

Although rape is not a woman’s moral fault, she must still protect herself from crime, just as I must protect myself from getting my car stolen by locking the door. It ought not be that way, but it is.

So I must lock my sweet sweet lady parts? Please. Nobody’s gonna break in and steal them. Most rape is not the stranger rape you imagine. Primarily it is date rape, and while there are things one can and should do to minimize putting themselves in a dangerous position, we should not be so accepting of the phonomena of rape as a regular occurance that we should advocate women locking their genitals like they would a car on a regular basis. Moreover, you seem to be putting the responsibility entirely on the women here.

You, sir, are an asshat.

[JThunder]

@fluiddruid

No amount of preventative measures is going to keep a man from cheating.

Only if a man is absolutely, 100% deadset on cheating. Not all men who cheat fall into that category.

Sometimes, men cheat because they find themselves in situations where the temptation is simply too great. This can be a sudden situation, or a gradual process. Avoiding those temptations can help reduce the likelihood that cheating will occur.

[Siege]

The question is, how do you define “opportunity”? In my case, if I thought the gentleman I’m seeing were inclined to cheat, I’d be more worried about him doing so while he was at a photography seminar than at a strip club. You see, in the year and a half I’ve known him, he’s gone to several of these seminars which last a weekend or a full week and the women at them share one of his greatest interests. As far as I know, he’s only considered going to a strip club once for a friend’s bachelor party and as far as he and I know, he doesn’t have anything in common with the women there. Sexual attraction can be based on a lot more than mere body type (thank heavens!) and I know him well enough to know a pretty body alone won’t be enough for him. A pretty body with an active, interesting mind, and shared interests, however, will present a much greater attraction and temptation. I figure he’s more likely to find out about the mind and interests during a weekend pursuing his hobby than during a few hours at a strip club.

CJ

[Czarcasm]

@inkleberry

You, sir, are an asshat.

And you’ve seemed to have forgotten which forum you are posting in. If you must insult, please go to The BBQ Pit.

[Dung_Beetle]

I can’t believe all the shit flying at Aeschines in here. He’s not saying all men are evil horndogs who can’t control themselves, or that all women who trust their men are fools. All I’m hearing from him is that strip clubs are not a healthy atmosphere for someone in a monogamous relationship, and I still have to agree with that 100%. I think the man’s just being honest and having to take a lot of flak because the truth isn’t as pretty as many women would like it to be. **Indygrrl ** agrees with him as well…I’m surprised that her opinion doesn’t swing more weight on this issue.

[wonky]

@Dung Beetle

**Indygrrl ** agrees with him as well…I’m surprised that her opinion doesn’t swing more weight on this issue.

Why would it? Why would anyone’s opinion on this issue carry weight with me other than my husband’s opinion and my own?

[Dung_Beetle]

@jsgoddess

Why would it? Why would anyone’s opinion on this issue carry weight with me other than my husband’s opinion and my own?

Not on your specific relationship, just her opinion on the atmosphere of strip clubs, and the fact that they are full of evil horndog men, some of whom are being foolishly trusted by their women.

[Dung_Beetle]

Yikes! Make that, “men, SOME OF WHOM are evil horndogs”, please!

avoids flying poo