I feel there are at least two issues involved here.
I agree with what I interpret Aeschines to be saying insomuchas humans are animals and subject to the drives and nature of animals. As such, males tend to want to mate with as many females as possible to ensure their gene line. There is also Alpha-male thinking related to “He that gets the most is the best”. I think these aspects are true and influences to contend with. What is hardwired into the brain does not go well with what is considered appropriate in western civilization at this point in history.
However, I do believe that the frontal lobe gives modern man the ablility to make considered choices. To work to maintain a relationship and trust is a matter of choice. But it must be the choice of the one facing the temptation.
Strip joints are full of temptation. I cannot disagree with this statement. Avoiding temptation is the easiest way to keep from facing these choices. True. These things seem self evident.
However, I don’t feel it is the partners place to police their SO. I have been in both kinds of relationships and the feeling I’m being managed is not one I respond well to. To be treated as if my words are lies and I intents are corrupt will not come to any good in the relation. If the SO intends to, or is of a nature to wander there is nothing you can do to prevent this. It has to be what they want to do because it’s what they expect from you and anything else would be too painful.
With regard to the strip club. In my younger, single days I was no stranger to clubs. They knew me, I knew them. And truth be told, I had alot of fun. But I was single and looking for trouble. However, I have been a part of these groups that go and can say that, going as a group is the safest way. If I were going to go looking for someone to get together with, I’d go alone. I have never seen anyone in a bachelor party get into troble if it is their intent not to. We came here together, we leave here together. It is very do-able. Once again, there must be a balance between the intent of the SO, the exposure to temptation and the minimization of danger. If the situation arose today, I would consider going as a part of a group. Being a male with animal programming, I would avoid temptation and never go alone.
And? I don’t think anyone here is arguing that strip clubs are sweetness and light, are they? Is anyone arguing that a man who wants to cheat on his SO at a strip club can’t do so? Of course not. The point for me is that a man who wants to cheat will cheat. I reject the notion that a man who doesn’t want to cheat will still cheat. It’s not just the Elephant Man who isn’t an animal.
(Well, of course we’re all animals, but you know what I mean!)
It may be that we have a different idea of what constitutes cheating. I’m a very jealous person myself, and I can imagine that a guy in this sort of situation could be easily nudged a step or two further along the continuum than I would be comfortable with. It doesn’t have to be fucking. Speaking for myself, I’d already be disturbed by the “looking at real live naked girls” part.
Tjis is where Aeschines starts to get into trouble and deserves the shit he is getting:
He goes on to state things like this several times. The problem here is:
I don’t think I am naive or willfully deluded. I’ve been to strip clubs. I’ve known strippers. And I know my own husband (10 year anniversary today, btw. But I’ve known him for 21 (!) years. Since I’m 38, that is a significant amount of my life.
Aeschines does not know me. He doens’t know whether I am worldly or naive. He is making a lot of assumptions.
Aeschines does not know my husband. As has been pointed out, different men have different temptations. This is one that isn’t likely to tempt mine (or at least not be so tempting that his animal brain overrides the “I love my wife and wouldn’t hurt her and besides, I think she is hot, and she knows I’ve been to a strip club, and the chances I’ll get lucky when I get home are pretty good. And the chances I’ll find my bags on the front doorstep if I fool around are also pretty good”). I’m more likely to get nervous over coworkers or old girlfriends (but even there, not really. I think both of us think we are a pretty good match and risking that match isn’t worth the temptation). I personally think Shodan’s “want a date” situation is probably much more tempting to guys who will cheat (intellegent ones at least, and my husband is fairly intellegent) - they are at a work conference (which in my experience, often involve more alcohol - and free alcohol - than strip clubs), no witnesses, at a hotel, able to shower off all evidence days before getting home. Far less likely for his friend’s wife to tell me about my husband’s misbehavior six months later (and in our group of friends, it wouldn’t take six months to get back to me if he misbehaved). And yet, what can I do - conferences are part of his work responsibilities? So I need to trust.
Aeschines does not know my husbands friends or what their bachelor parties are like. He’s had an invitation to go to Amsterdam with another group of guys - a group more likely to find trouble (though unlikely hooker/stripper trouble, but more probable that would happen in Amsterdam than in the local strip club). Perhaps if we lived in Montreal, I’d feel differently about his attending bachelor parties at strip clubs. (And, to address an earlier point, I’m not sure either of us would be comfortable with a party with strippers held in a private location - like a home or a rented hotel room. The few bachelor parties he’s been to at someone’s home have involved beer and porn movies).
I have no doubt AT ALL that SOME guys shouldn’t be trusted within 100 feet of a strip club (and as I said, some guys shouldn’t be trusted at my grandmother’s knitting circle). And I have no doubt that some women delude themselves with “he’ll never cheat.” But many of the women who have posted to this thread with “it isn’t a big deal” have been consistant for years, and at least their postings imply stable marriages.
And no, I don’t believe all women need to be OK with this. I do think that if you are not OK with it and if it is something that is important to your SO because he sees it as a committment to his friends (and specifically bachelor parties - which are a different animal than hanging out at a strip club) you are creating friction and this is something worth determining early in a relationship to see what can be worked out. Its better for someone who isn’t OK with this to partner with someone who also thinks that strip clubs are inappropriate for partnered men (or inappropriate period).
To Aeschines friend, who fucked a whore at his own bachelor party - would not having the bachelor party have kept him faithful throughout his marriage? That, in my mind, is putting the cart before the horse. The man seems likely to fool around SOMETIME over the likely life of a lifelong marriage. Its a shame the bride didn’t realize she was marrying a jerk.
Well, then, strip clubs would consistute a betrayal of trust in your relationship. But you are right, it depends on what constitutes cheating. There are people in open relationships where (generally as long as communication happens, and occationally prior permission is recieved), fucking is ok. And there are people who feel betrayal when their SO has a conversation with another woman. Which is why, no matter where you fall on the continuum, communication is important. And which is why its important to find someone who has similar values. i.e. it isn’t reasonable to expect an “open marriage” kind of guy to never have a conversation with another woman.
Well, sure. If that would disturb you then your SO at a strip club would be horrible for you. And I would hope you and your SO could work out something that would keep both parties comfortable.