One thing the mythos of the show has made clear, the celestials exist and operate at the pleasure of God himself. The powers and abilities they have are those He wishes them to have or not as the case may be. If God wanted Lucifer back in hell, he would be. The celestials have significant autonomy in their actions, but that seems to have been a result of a decision to give them that, not an intrinsic thing with them.
I disagree about Eve. Firstly, Able is also in hell, per the last season.
As far as Cain is concerned, we have seen him do good in his life as well. We have seen several times that Mrs Adam is far more cunning than she lets on and on multiple occassions its hinted that she has an agenda beyond Lucifer.
For a little girl solidarity, I’m going to ask you NOT to refer to her as “Mrs Adam” both because she clearly was in an arranged marriage about which she was not consulted, she isn’t even his first wife (Lilith was Adam’s first wife. And Mazikeen’s mother.), and she herself has expressed distaste at being regarded as just an extension of Adam (“Why do they still put his name first?”). Her name is “Eve”. No last name because when there were only two people in the world that was hardly necessary.
For darn sure, though, she’s a liar. Even states outright in her first conversation with Lucifer that she’s a rule-breaker. She might have been good enough to get into heaven, but she’s no saint!
Sooooo… is she working on her own agenda? Or someone else’s? How much of her own personality does she have anyway? She tried to change to please Adam. She tries to change to please Lucifer. She tries to imitate other people. I’m not sure she knows who she is at all, or what she herself actually wants. Eve comes across as really naive and immature to me, a child in an adult body. But she’s cunning - she got from wherever she had been buried to Los Angeles with no money, no passport, no ID, not really but whatever clothes she was wearing (and I have no idea where she got those, it’s never addressed).
She’s not out for revenge, but she does play a critical part in the series arc.
Anyhow - it’s clearly obvious that even “evil” entities in the Luciferverse can perform good acts. Cain doing good may or may not wipe out past misdeeds, or keep him out of hell (and you gotta wonder what the afterlife for him is going to be like given that he pissed off the Devil, who now has a personal animosity towards him). Eve describes Abel as “gentle” but apparently he and Cain fought viciously and Abel was naughty enough to wind up in hell. Not to mention that when we do see Abel he’s far from what we’d call a nice guy.
Free will is kind of pointless if you take it away as soon as someone makes a decision you don’t like.
I think the long game on the part of God in this 'verse is to get Lucifer to go back to hell voluntarily. God is all-powerful, right? He could just zap Lucifer back to hell but he doesn’t.
I think folks in the Luciferverse do have free will, including the Celestials, but I think God also loads the dice. If you have, say, a kid who really, really, really likes chocolate ice cream but hates strawberry ice cream and you offer the kid a choice between chocolate and strawberry you are giving the kid free choice… but it’s also a pretty sure bet which one the kid is going to freely choose. So… is it still free choice if you already know what that person will freely choose? Is it still free choice if you deliberately limit the range of choices?
There’s a quick line in this season that says only a Celestial can rule hell, it’s constructed so no demon can take the throne of hell. That pretty much means from the start some angel had to rule hell. That leads me to the following questions:
If Lucifer hadn’t rebelled would he have still wound up on the hell throne?
Did hell not exist until after Lucifer’s rebellion?
If Lucifer never goes back does that mean one of his siblings gets stuck with the job?
Furthermore -
Why did God let Lucifer leave hell at all if it was so important to keep a lid on the place?
Or is that part of the “free will” of the Luciferverse?
If Lucifer (like everyone else in hell) could leave at any time why did he stay there so long? (except that earlier episodes implied he had been to Earth before, not to mention that whole tempting Eve in the garden thing)
If Lucifer can (and has) come and go whenever he wants what made him go back at all? Lingering obedience to God (who is more powerful than he is)? Acceptance of the hell throne as punishment for his rebellion?
And what made him dig in his heels this time and refuse to go back? He’d just finally had it?
Did God tolerate his absence because he knew Lucifer really needed a break from his duties as the Devil?
I still think that, for whatever reason, it’s somehow important that Lucifer returns to rule hell of his own volition. Maybe God thinks it’s more fun that way rather than strong-arming everyone for the result he wants.
(I have some other stuff that I want to discuss, but it would spoil the end of the season so I’m going to hold off it for awhile.)
In the comic, Lucifer finally left hell (permanently) because he had finally just had it. He got sick of lording it over demons (manipulating them was fun at first, but what’s the point?), and tired of being accused of being somehow responsible for the sins and failures of mortals. Also he said that if he was in hell as a punishment for rebelling, not only had he long since finished paying for it, but he had come to realize that his rebellion, far from being in defiance of God, was actually yet another instance of being manipulated into fulfilling part of God’s master plan.
As for the other questions, he says that if it hadn’t been him, some other angel would have rebelled. Hell was where he and his comrades fell into when they were kicked out of the Silver City (so presumably it was already there…) After he fucks off (first to Perth, then Los Angeles), eventually a couple of other angels (Remiel and Duma) get stuck with the job.
Here’s a question: why was Asherah (or whatever her name was) in hell at the end of Season 1? Did the writers ever attempt to explain it?
In the first season, Amenadiel is given the additional charge of well…Angel in-charge of hell.
A fact he is not happy about.
No idea who got stuck with the duty since.
Yeah, but I think it’s pretty clear that the Lucifer!TV is a different universe (or collection of universes) than Lucifer!comic
Nope.
And The Goddess of All Creation was never given a name on the TV show. She’s called “Asherah” because of a ancient Canaanite (or related tribe) Goddess who may or may not have been a consort of Yahweh at some point. Clearly, though, by the time the Old Testament was standardized she had been retconned out of it, if she had ever been there in the first place.
Or nobody had it, which is why the demons got so uppity towards the end of season 4 (shh! Spoilers!)
While Charlotte was called “mom”. at least from what we have seen on the mythology of the show, she is not the creator or co creator, she is a created celestial just like the others. Which is why she is sent to hell later.
Um… well, no, in “God Johnson” the story is that God and Goddess meeting created the Big Bang, and I think there are other references to it as well. The idea is that while this may be God’s universe/creation God didn’t create the Goddess, she’s an equal of sorts.
There was that bit in “They’re Back, Aren’t They?” where Lucifer makes a comment about “unless Dad got jiggy with another Celestial babe after mom” but that would be referring to a half-sibling of Lucifer’s, which technically wouldn’t even have to be a Celestial i suppose, it’s just implying that Sam would need to be more powerful than a human to take away Lucifer’s devil face and give him back wings. Of course, later on we find out that it was Lucifer doing that to himself.
There was also Maze complaining about how hard it was to torture an entity without a physical body, whereas the angels certainly do have physical forms. The GoAC isn’t human, but she’s not an angel (in any sense of the word) either.
Why, yes, I am slightly obsessing about this show, why do you ask?
There are certainly worse things I could be doing.
So, for today’s consideration: What is Lucifer’s real form?
Is his “true” face that of the Devil or that of the angel? What is his true form?
My answer behind the spoiler, not so much because it’s full of spoiler but because I want to hear your answer before you read mine.
The binary choice between devil and angel is false - his true form is both. For all that Lucifer is the terrifying, punishing Devil he is also an angel and capable of kindness, forgiveness, and selflessness. He isn’t one thing or the other, he’s both. Which is something he needed to realize and Chloe helped him do that by accepting that he is not only her partner and someone she loves but he is also just as much the Devil and the King of Hell. You don’t have one without the other with him. That’s why the King of Hell still has white angel wings and a beautiful face, as well as another monstrous form. As he says to the would-be robber in the first episode, paraphrased: you’re a thief, but that’s not all you are. Lucifer is the Devil, but that’s not all he is.
Huh, been thinking about this - they did introduce Remiel this season. She didn’t have much of a role in my opinion, but she very much could become important later. Without getting too spoilery it is definitely established this season that hell MUST have a ruler and having Remiel in charge could allow Lucifer to spend time on Earth in a manner relatively safe for the universe at large.
And speaking of the future - the producers/writers/etc. are making noises about a season 5 but no word from Netflix on that. If anything, I think this season is much stronger than the prior one. Although the finale would be a workable ending for the series I’d really like to see more.
I’m hooked, although I accidentally watched Ep 1 of season 4 first, then just rolled with it. Not sure if I really need to go back and watch seasons 1-3 now after knowing about the “reveal”.
Could be. They are telling different stories. But they are using the same background (it even says, “based on […]”): he runs a piano bar named “Lux” with his pal Maze, etc. So, to the extent the TV writers haven’t made up their own, contradictory material, or simply haven’t thought about it, there is the general background story from the comics.
Oh, there was clearly a lot of deliberate editing, but she’s not completely gone. They put in some commandments to destroy and burn her shrines.
At least there is a new series of comics out Starting with a disheveled Lucifer trapped in some weird-ass town, and featuring LAPD detective John Decker.
Can we talk about the bar fight in “All About Eve”? I loved that bar fight. We could probably do it without getting all spoilerly. It was so much fun right up to the “Helllllloooooo Detective!”
Since that episode, Eve has become a little less likeable to me. She exhibits the same kind of erotic reaction to the punishment of evil-doers as the evil-doers themselves often experience murdering people.
That episode with Lela being dosed on ecstasy was pretty hilarious though.
When she hugs Chloe and admiringly comments that her coat feels so good that it must be like “being hugged by a muppet” had me rolling (natch).
Starting with a disheveled Lucifer trapped in some weird-ass town, and featuring LAPD detective John Decker.