The kid’s only 3 1/2, for goodness’ sake! He probably doesn’t even see Dora as “girl” or “boy.” He see’s Dora as a fun, colorful character that he likes.
My mother enjoys telling the story of one Halloween when she dressed my (older) brother in a dress, even curled his hair and added a little bit of rouge, and stood out of sight while he went to “Nana’s” front door trick-or-treating. Nana didn’t have a clue that this was her grandson, Mark. He must have been 2 or 3 at the time, long before I was even born. I would LOVE to have seen that!
/whisper
Is fessie talking about SolGrundy, who’s a “he” not a “she”?
/whisper
But to answer: no, I wasn’t talking about your story in particular; I was just talking about a stereotype. It’s an old stereotype – the big dad who’s so paranoid about his son turning out to be a “sissy” that he makes the kid miserable if there’s any sign that he likes “girly” things. I wasn’t intending to make any connection to your post, but re-reading it that sounds exactly like what I was doing, so I apologize.
Maybe. But personally, I’d prefer to let our 10-and-older kids, who have a better understanding of “girl stuff” vs “boy stuff,” decide if they want to be part of The Great Gender Shift, and if so, how much.
Again, I don’t think a three-year-old who wants to dress as Dora is saying, “I want to be a girl tonight,” he’s just saying that he thinks a certain TV character is cool. It’s not the same as making him wear dresses all the time, and it’s not even a particularly feminine character. And it’s not going to – horrors! – turn the kid gay. Still, the question was whether or not we’d let our kids (fictional or otherwise) do it, and I can honestly say that at that age, it would make me uncomfortable.
Well, Sol, my point is that a three year old probably has next to no understanding of “girl stuff” vs. “boy stuff”. So why does it matter to the kid’s parents, or to anyone?
I hope you don’t feel that I’m harassing you, I genuinely don’t understand your POV, and astro hasn’t come back to the discussion.
Most women could (somewhat understandably) care less about appropriate gender role modeling for their small children, and quite few of a more progressive orientation are postively delighted when their small male children show no gender consciousness. Most fathers (in my experience) are going to be somewhat more conscious and concerned about gender appropriate behavior in their sons. This is not because fathers are oppressive patrichiarial gender bigots, but because most men know instinctively, and often through hard experience, that boys who choose a highly non-confroming path with respect to gender roles often have hard time of it in ths world.
Even in 2004 women have a lot more leeway in how they want to dress and express themselves. A “tomboy” has a much easier time of it than a “sissy”. This issue is a giant “whoosh” for a lot of women, because they haven’t lived it. They just don’t get it, and often disregard a father’s feelings on the issue because they don’t see how it is at all important. Granted this is not a big deal for a toddler or kindergardener, but the instinctive desire to reinforce appropriate (in the father’s opinion) gender role modeling is strong enough that many fathers would be somewhat “bothered” by a young son’s decision to emulate and portray a female character. If the kid is old enough to decide to go in drag as a lark it’s a non-issue.
astro, that was very well explained! I still think if I had a son, I’d let him do it, but after reading your post, I think I have a better grasp of yours and Sol’s POV.
But these gender divisions are not natural. “girl stuff” and “boy stuff” didn’t spring forth from the sea foam. You (and the society around you) are creating them almost constantly through the way you treat your children. People that bend or break these norms have such a hard time precisely because much of childhood is spent hammering gender norms into kids’ heads. They arn’t given time to figure out much about anything before they are ushered into the glittery pink Barbie or camflaged GI Joe sections of the toy store. And little boys most certainly do notice their fathers getting nervous and even hostile when gender roles are broken- don’t you think this perpetuates itself? They arn’t getting a choice about the “great gender divide” so why are you so worked up about how their Halloween costumes play in to the “great gender shift”?
I only say this because there are and always have been some people that have do fall outside of the gender norms. Some societies have created a place for these people. Some societies beat them up and kill them. We belong to the latter. By maintaining the status quo, you are maintaining a society where a quarter of transgendered people kill themselves, and it’s not unusual for them to die at the hands of others. The current gender norms are not neutral. They are deadly.
And for many transgendered kids (not that kids that dress up as the opposite sex for Halloween are all transgendered- just that a certain small portion are bound to be) Halloween has special signfigance. For many it is the only time they can be themselves in public without the risk of bodily harm. Transgendered people generally figure out that something is going on with their gender at a very young age- around five or so. The memories of having this once yearly event destroyed by disapproval or disallowment can cause them mental anguish for the rest of their lives and may cause discord (even if in secret) with their parents forever.
When my daughter was 4 she wanted to be Woody (the cowboy/sherriff from Toy Story.) I did ask her if she’d rather be Jesse (the cowgirl) but no, she definitely wanted to be Woody. We made her the costume, stuffed her hair under her hat and had her little brother go as Buzz Lightyear. Everyone was happy.
If my son wanted to go as Dora I’d say why not. How many thousands of little boys have gone as Blue with their parents not knowing she’s a female character? Who cares?
It’s sad that a male with any feminine inclinations is so vilified by society.
It probably wouldn’t have anything to do with inclinations. Boys generally go for the “kick ass” tough guy characters. In the “old days” that might be cowboys, Batman, Dracula, whatever. These days though, the Tomb Raider and Xena are pretty kick ass too. I just don’t see the harm in it, for just one night out of the year. It’s probably the action adventure thing that they are interested in. Now if kiddo wanted to be Hyacinth Bucket, I might be concerned
You don’t say. Well, I wouldn’t know anything about that. I had the perfectly normal upbringing, growing up in the southeast with uncles who gave me the stink-eye when I said I wasn’t into sports or hunting, and aunts who looked concerned when I showed no interest in girls but a lot of interest in other guys. I guess that’s why I’m such a hard-line traditionalist, willing to do permanent psychological damage to my child for the sake of some oppressive, brainwashing patriarchal system.
Or maybe it’s because I can remember being about five or six and coming home crying because some of the neighbor kids pushed me down and called me a “faggot” because I couldn’t play football with them, and then my dad started crying because he just couldn’t explain to me what the word meant. Because I was too young. At that age, a kid is still trying to figure out how the world even works, and he shouldn’t be expected to put up with that kind of crap just because his enlightened parents read Free to Be You and Me a few too many times and believe that’s the way the world should work. And at that age, I didn’t want to rail against oppressive conformist society – I just wanted to be a kid and have fun with the other kids.
Yes, gender roles are mostly arbitrary. So is the rule that we drive on the right side of the road in the US. Still, most people do it. It’s the way things work. It works for the vast majority of people and causes them no psychological harm.
I’m genuinely surprised at some of the reactions in this thread. For starters, the “how could you of all people think this way?” This isn’t about sexuality; children have no sexuality. It’s about gender. When/if I have a son, I’m obviously not going to get all freaked out if it turns out that he’s gay. But until he’s ready to come to that realization, I’m going to assume that he’s straight. And I have about a 90% chance of being right. It’s the same way with gender. 90% of traditional roles work (in the sense that they’re not in any way damaging) for 90% of the people, 90% of the time. Arbitrary? Certainly. Oppressive? Hardly.
Take the old analogy to the left-handed child. If you tie his left hand behind his back and force him to write with his right hand, then you’re running the risk of screwing the kids up. But if you start him out with the pencil in his right hand and encourage him to learn with the right hand, then you’re just saying, “This way it’s going to be easier for you to buy scissors when you get older.”
Everyone who’s so appalled that a man could get so “worked up” about his son wanting to dress up as a woman: am I to assume that you all had a completely genderless upbringing? And that you dress your own child only in neutral beige coveralls, giving them a full complement of gender-neutral toys? I’m skeptical. I suspect that what really happens is that you encourage (not force, and not judge) your child to conform to some degree or another to an established gender norm.
To all those who say “what’s the big deal” if the kid wants to go as a girl for Halloween, it’s not that big a deal on its own. And I say it’s not that big a deal to encourage the kid not to. Kids don’t have one defining moment that determines their emotional and psychological well-being and gender-identity for the rest of their lives. It’s a gradual process of development. If you consistently force the kid to do something that he’s not comfortable with, then you’re screwing him up. If you’re understanding and supportive for the stuff he really believes in, while encouraging him along an arbitrary path, you’re just being a parent.
Hmmmm. I liked fishing and still do. I liked football until we all got bigger and the big hits started to hurt (at maybe 120 pounds I had no business trying to hang in there with the big guys anymore). I’ve done some hunting. I never wanted a GI Joe, because dolls were for girls, even if the doll had tanks and guns. I was into cars and motorcycles. All the macho things, and they were great fun. Turns out, it didn’t matter much. We’re only talking about one night out of the year, and are assuming it’s not a forced or “directed” choice of costumes. A three/four year old has no idea about orientation, and the point people were making was, if you don’t make it a big deal, it probably won’t be. You make a good point about bullying, but what parent would let a toddler go out alone at night anyway? It’s one thing to give guidance and encouragement, it’s whole other thing to go into melt down. People like you aren’t the problem. The problem is people who simply lose their minds and go bat shit.
And Sol, I can’t help but getting the feeling that the “you, of all people” reaction is a bit ironic – as if because of your sexual/gender identity, you were expected to take a certain position on the issue.
A 3-year-old boy as Dora? I dunno… then again I did no H’ween dress-up until I was in school, and neither did my nephews. By Grade 1 we all have a slightly better sense of ourselves.
I certainly do see the point about wanting to protect one’s child from teasing. Perhaps I should mention here that FCW is an immigrant (Asian, FWIW), which may affect her perspective on cultural acceptance of such things. However, my two white-bread American friends who were present during the conversation agreed with her, so I didn’t figure that was the biggest factor.
I think the responses you’re getting are because we’re talking about costuming, one night of the year, with parental supervision.
If a kid’s getting beat up or taunted at age 3 for wearing a Dora the Explorer costume out trick-or-treating with his mom and/or dad, well, then I don’t know, I guess I just don’t believe it would happen. Perhaps you and I grew up in very different envorinments, but certainly at that age, none of my ‘peers’ would have cared at all.
If you’re going to imply that everyone here is being a blind idealist, perhaps you ought to look at how your own personal experience with sexuality discrimination might have tainted your perspective on gender expression at such a young age. I mean, you mention dressing baby boys in blue and girls in pink. Now, honestly, the color you dress a baby in will have no lasting effects on the child. No 5 month old bullies are going to teethe on the kid for dressing like a girl. I get the feeling that it’s not protection for the child you’re really talking about, but more an overriding fear that the kid isn’t going to be ‘normal’, or at least isn’t going to read as ‘normal’, and somehow it’s imperative that he be so.
So this means folks are happy with my choice of attire?The schoolgirl outfit suits me beautifully,even if the heels hurt a bit and the skirt’s a bit too short…
Well it beats boring old t-shirt and jeans
