We never found out why Kate’s wrists were bleeding when she arrived at the cage across from Sawyer, did we?
[QUOTE=Monstre]
But who gets to determine that they were “bad ones”? Was Scott a bad one? What about Nathan? In the case of Goodwin, he ran off to infiltrate the Tailies right away, before Ben went and told Mikhail to start assembling data on all the survivors. Now, I suppose Goodwin could have made some secret contact somehow with the Others during his infiltration, but did he really get information on Nathan before snapping his neck? Nathan had done nothing wrong that we know of. He was just the wrong target of Ana Lucia’s suspicion.
Even if the Others deemed them “bad ones”, killing the crash survivors as they just hang out on the beach or in the jungle, minding their own business (in the case of Scott and Nathan), would seem to fit under the heading of “evil” actions.
Ben insists they are the “good guys”, but he must be really good at rationalizing away their actions!
[/QUOTE]
Jacob made the lists, based on info retrieved from Mikhail and the lists generated by Goodwin and Ethan… the ‘good ones’ on the list(s) had already started being taken prior to Goodwins action, and it can be assumed by that Nathan was not on one of those lists.
THey have made references in the past that they were more afraid of Jacob (him) than anything…
What I always found surprising was that there were none taken from the beach, no one on the beach made the “lists” …
The ‘others’ haven’t killed anyone randomly - Charlie was hung by Ethan in his attempt to get Claire, Scott was killed by Ethan (presumed) in order to get Claire, Nathan was killed by Goodwin to protect Goodwin (the whole of the others at that point).
Most high control groups are very good at rationaling anything, including murder, when needed.
Note - I did not say that the others were the “good guys” - just that so far they havent been shown to be so “beyond redemptionl EVIL” as to rape prisoners… if they are truly in the mindset that the project they are working on to save the world is valid, Ethan’s actions to retrieve, even protect, Claire are valid, as were Goodwin’s (needs of the many outwiegh the needs of a few, or the one).
Of course, a “meet and greet on the beach” where the others told the losties a few things would have resolved much.
One question that still kinda bugs me… Desmond … seemingly doing Dharma work, why did the others allow that particular Hatch (and the food drops) to go on ? Why would Dharma continue the food drops once the radioshack was taken ?
It is possible that DHARMA didn’t know what had happened on the Island. I assume the food drops were continuing because Mikhal continued to call for them.
I don’t see how killing Nathan protected Goodwin or how killing Scott would help get at Claire.
[QUOTE=Sir Prize]
I don’t see how killing Nathan protected Goodwin or how killing Scott would help get at Claire.
[/QUOTE]
Goodwin killing Nathan was protecting Goodwin and his infiltration of the tailies, nothing to do with Claire.
Killing Scott was to fulfill the threat made by Ethan if they didn’t hand over Claire, and Scott just happened to have the redshirt on that nite.
If they really want women for breeding experiments I don’t think they need to rape them. They have the facilities to take a more clinical approach and an AI or in vitro technique would be less messy and more likely to produce results. I also think they would see forced impregnation that way as justifiable, but rape would be barbaric and counter to their “we’re good guys” belief.
[QUOTE=Merijeek]
I think it’s immortality, or close to it.
Ben’s cancer was a shock because that kind of thing doesn’t happen there. Something magical is going on and it keeps everyone young and healthy far longer than they should be.
Some people are willing to do anything for that immortality. Maybe The Others weren’t that bad until that immortality started to slip - that slippage has them scrambling to figure out what the island wants so they can go back to being immortal. They’ve actually given up their position and their prisoners/hostages because Locke is the key to that.
Juliet, meanwhile, has realized that being immortal because of the island means giving up everything and missing out on life - as represented by her sister and nephew. So, she wants out.
That’s my current theory and I’m sticking to it.
-Joe
[/QUOTE]
Makes as much sense as anything else in the show. Makes me wonder how old Ben really is – maybe he’s become a genius manipulator just by being around so long.
I’m tellin’ ya: Ben and many of the Hostiles are just kids. They were born a few years ago. Their growth was accelerated. They’re super smart. Some of them are psychic. Some of them have superhuman strength. All as a result of Dharma experiments. Meanwhile, being kids, they’re emotionally immature. Many of them have poor impulse control. (Again, emotionally immature kids.) Also, having had no normal upbringing but rather having been brought up by a cultish organization, they naturally fall into cult mode themselves. Also, they’re scared shitless. Some organization opposed to Dharma has turned them against Dharma. (“Jacob” and his people.) But that organization is just using them in turn.* And the kids/others/hostiles don’t understand what’s going on.
-FrL-
*Or maybe “Jacob” isn’t a representative of some outside organization, but was just one of the kids themselves, gone terribly wrong. But I think he represents an organization, because that would constitute the Others’ ties to the outside world.
To late to edit, but I wanted to add the following summary:
So they’re scared, confused, emotionally immature, poorly self-controling, prone to manipulation. In other words, children. Add to that, supersmart, superstrong, and psychic and you get a scary combination. Also note that “prone to manipulation” plus their upbringing explains their social structure, and partially explains their turning against Dharma and the way they talk about “Jacob.”
That’s my theory.
[QUOTE=simster]
Note - I did not say that the others were the “good guys” - just that so far they havent been shown to be so “beyond redemptionl EVIL” as to rape prisoners… if they are truly in the mindset that the project they are working on to save the world is valid, Ethan’s actions to retrieve, even protect, Claire are valid, as were Goodwin’s (needs of the many outwiegh the needs of a few, or the one).
[/QUOTE]
Well, what if raping Kate and getting her pregnant was an important step in the project they are working on to save the world? Maybe they need more pregnant women to study. You know, needs of the many and all that. Especially if Kate is one of the “bad ones” in their estimation. If she’s a bad one, why would raping her for a good cause be any worse than killing her for a good cause? To them, either would be justified, right?
I just think the notion that to the outside observer (i.e. we, the viewers):
"rape = beyond redeption evil"
but
“murder (including brutal mulitple-bone-crushing murder, not just merciful quick and painless murder) = maybe justified, not beyond redemption evil”
seems a bit incongruous.
Gotta ask myself – If given the choice (say she can only pick one), would Kate choose:
a) NOT get raped.
b) NOT get murdered.
Not that I think raping Kate to get her pregnant would be a good storyline or anything. (I don’t). I just don’t see how THAT’s what crosses them over the line from “maybe okay” to “totally evil”, considering what they’ve already done, regardless of how they’ve rationalized it.
Something weird that occurred to me last night.
Is it possible that Rachel’s son is actually Juliet’s? Maybe it was all a con and her ‘procedure’ never worked. Instead it was just some surrogate mother thing instead of a science-given miracle.
Juliet’s reaction to her sister was too strong for it to be a woman’s reaction to her sister, even if she thought she’d been dead for a couple years.
Maybe she just really wanted to see her son.
And what are the odds that being a ‘good one’ is related to being useful - one of the qualities of being useful is being of childbearing age?
-Joe
[QUOTE=simster]
One question that still kinda bugs me… Desmond … seemingly doing Dharma work, why did the others allow that particular Hatch (and the food drops) to go on ? Why would Dharma continue the food drops once the radioshack was taken ?
[/QUOTE]
A good question. We know that Ben had to have known about the existence of the Swan station, at least by the time that it was inhabited by Jack, Locke, etc. Because of the scene a few weeks ago with Paolo in the Pearl bathroom – when Ben and Juliet came in. However, this was after Desmond had already vacated.
So now I wonder – how long has Ben known about the Pearl? If it’s been a while, then he has to have seen Desmond on the monitors previously. So why not try to take over that station too?
Or maybe Ben didn’t find the Pearl until more recently? Until our Losties were already in it? I’d say that’s less likely – but I don’t recall anything yet that would verify yet one way or another. Maybe learning about the Swan station (for the Others) was really a more recent development.
Maybe they didn’t want to be the ones stuck pushing the button. There was someone doing it, so why bother?
Then again, that means that they need to hustle someone there within 108 minutes if Desmond drops dead - and I don’t think Mikail could communicate so quickly.
So…seems a hole there. Unless they didn’t know about it, and I seriously doubt that.
-Joe
Was it Juliet who through the bomb on the boat during Walt’s kidnapping?
-FrL-
[QUOTE=Merijeek]
Maybe they didn’t want to be the ones stuck pushing the button. There was someone doing it, so why bother?
[/QUOTE]
I don’t think they even really knew what that station and the button were for, though. If they did, I think they would have worked more to preserve it. Because NOT pushing the button was supposedly going to have major catastrophic results, and even the turning of the failsafe key (when the sky turned purple) resulted in their losing communications with the outside world.
Well, it wasn’t that actress (Elizabeth Mitchell).
As a general reply to everyone talking about what the Others knew about Dharma and the Swan station, etc:
I’m not convinced that the Others are not Dharma. All we know about the war between Dharma and the “Hostiles” came from Mikhail who, at the time, was claiming to be Dharma. After he was caught out and revealed to be a manipulative liar he admitted to lying about being Dharma, but claimed that everything else he had said was true.
I think it’s the opposite. The whole story about the war was deliberate disinformation. When outted as a liar, Mikhail’s best chance of making sure that his lies would continue to be believed was to falsely admit to being one of the “Hostiles” he had made up.
Mikhail (and through him the writers) dragged a big stinking, rotting red herring across the path in order to confuse the Losties (and through them the viewers).
[QUOTE=Rich Mann]
Mikhail (and through him the writers) dragged a big stinking, rotting red herring across the path in order to confuse the Losties (and through them the viewers).
[/QUOTE]
I agree, if for no other reason that The Kurgan (I can’t remember his name right now) was at the Swan…but he was also wandering around the island and was never attacked by The Others.
I think he (Kelvin?) was, like Juliet, another disillusioned DHARMite. Which is why he was secretly trying to get the sailboat repaired.
-Joe
[QUOTE=simster]
Goodwin killing Nathan was protecting Goodwin and his infiltration of the tailies,
[/QUOTE]
How? Goodwin was already very well protected by Ana-Lucia’s suspicion of Nathan.
[QUOTE=Rich Mann]
I’m not convinced that the Others are not Dharma. All we know about the war between Dharma and the “Hostiles” came from Mikhail who, at the time, was claiming to be Dharma. After he was caught out and revealed to be a manipulative liar he admitted to lying about being Dharma, but claimed that everything else he had said was true.
[/QUOTE]
But Marvin Kandle or whatever his name is mentions the Hostiles in his chess-protected film. If the hostiles are attacking you’re supposed to push “1” or something. So it seems clear that Dharma did in fact have problems with “hostiles” of some sort, rather than Mikhail having made them up from whole cloth.
[QUOTE=Fiver]
How? Goodwin was already very well protected by Ana-Lucia’s suspicion of Nathan.
[/QUOTE]
Goodwin actually said something about this in his confrontation with Ana Lucia. He said something like Ana Lucia would start to believe Nathan once she started torturing him (I believe she mentioned chopping off fingers), so he had to kill him before that happened.