LOTR question(s)

Cafe Society
181

I too hope Qadop continues to feel better. Here, have some lembas.

I still contend that there was free will in Middle Earth. It’s a more Catholic idea than a Protestant one, after all, and so fits in with Tolkien’s own beliefs. But I won’t get us bogged down in this. I’ll just continue to interpret things my way. (We can choose what to do with the time that is given to us, even if some things are just Meant To Be.)

As for the films, it’s amazing how much I can forgive what Peter Jackson did wrong. Probably because of the things he did right.

What fun to follow you along on your journey thru ME in this thread, elanorigby.

182

Jim, I agree with you, some of the changes PJ made in the movies drove me crazy, too. Mostly the wimpifying of Aragorn (his hesitancy about kingship, rather than his lifelong preparation for kingship at the right time) and the rift between him and Elrond and Arwen.

Akin to that, the bombastic battle of magic between Gandalf and Saruman in Orthanc. That was just offal. As many have noted upthread regarding the magic of the Three Rings, I am sure that the power struggle between the wizards was much more subtle.

But the way places looked was outstanding. Bag End, Rivendell, the wonderfully Old Norse/Icelandic Hall of Theoden, etc, stunning.

183

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
I find it interesting that Frodo shouted out what he did (Gelbereth etc). I have no idea what it means, but it seems to have daunted his attackers. (why not put that in the movie? It’s one line!)
[/QUOTE]

Not ‘Gelbereth’, but Elbereth. What Frodo shouts is the Sindarin name of Varda - she’s a Vala, Manwe’s spouse, and is reknowned for making the stars.

184

Sorry about the G.

WhatExit–you really should sit down with the EEs some rainy weekend. afterall, you have the Power of the Remote–you can change the order in which you watch, skip things that bug you etc. I recommend it.

The films are visually stunning, no matter their subject matter. For the most part, PJ made ME come to life–the clothes, the weapons, the landscape–he was true to ME there. I also liked the way he combined Elvish with the common tongue–a nice touch, and not overdone. The music is incredible–did the guy win an Oscar? I hope so.

I have some meh moments within the films, due to the rest being so well shot and lit etc. One is the tree of Lothlorien. It looks like your average sycamore tree to me (can’t recall the name of it–mellorn? Damn, I just read that part). Anyway, it wasn’t impressive in the movie, but it was large.

Galadriel (film again)–I expected her to emit a light or glow (not glow in the dark stuff, but like an aura). I think Cate Blanchett is pretty, but in my head, Galadriel is more like one of the women drawn by Moucha–very art nouvea, very Maxfield Parrish in radiant color. Google either of them to see what I mean. ( the fact that Moucha’s work was used to sell JOB rolling papers has nothing to do with my choice. Honestly!).

Mr Galadriel–I call him this because no matter how powerful he was in the books/legends/history of ME, he was very much NOT that in the film. I half expected him to say “yes, dear” in the scene he’s in.

What is the significance of the curved blade given to Aragorn by Mr G as they leave? I’m not quite there in the books-just about to start reading.
I don’t mind that Aragorn was a reluctant King in the films. It is hard to show an inner life on film, and there is no dramatic arch to “I’ve been preparing to be King for 90 years and now I’m ready.” Unless you explore that man’s life–and that doesn’t enter into the story. I also don’t understand why if Aragorn was ready all this time, he didn’t return to Gondor and just take his rightful place.

I actually prefer the simplified storyline of Boromir/Faramir, but then I’ve never been a Denethor fan. He is a bit caricatured in the films.

Need to run a few errands. Will read more in about an hour. I’m a fast reader. And I have to finish these books prior to second week of Nov.–I have ACLS and PALS to recert. (job related stuff).

185

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
I have some meh moments within the films, due to the rest being so well shot and lit etc. One is the tree of Lothlorien. It looks like your average sycamore tree to me (can’t recall the name of it–mellorn? Damn, I just read that part). Anyway, it wasn’t impressive in the movie, but it was large.

Mr Galadriel–I call him this because no matter how powerful he was in the books/legends/history of ME, he was very much NOT that in the film. I half expected him to say “yes, dear” in the scene he’s in.

What is the significance of the curved blade given to Aragorn by Mr G as they leave? I’m not quite there in the books-just about to start reading.

I also don’t understand why if Aragorn was ready all this time, he didn’t return to Gondor and just take his rightful place.
[/QUOTE]

The trees are the Mallorns, significantly Samwise was gifted a Mallorn seed. He planted it in Hobbiton in place of the “Party Tree” that had been cut down by the evil men.

Celeborn, (The C is pronounce like a K by the way) was not very significant compared to Galadriel. He was not particularly powerful and he did not rule Lothlorien, Lady Galadriel clearly did. So your impressions of him are accurate enough.

I can’t help on the curved blade, I don’t recall that in the books.

Aragorn could not simply return to Minas Tirith. There were several issues. Aragorn could only have Arwen’s hand in marraige if he was the King of the reunited Kingdom. To be the King of the Reunited Kingdom, Aragorn needed to defeat Sauron. Aragorn’s claims to kingship were clear for Arnor (the Northwest). His line descended all the long way down from Elendil without interuption. However, Isildur, left the Kingship of Gondor to his nephew, Anárion’s son Meneldil. Aragorn had no clear claim on Gondor and indeed in some time in the past, one of the Northern Kings had put claim to Gondor’s throne and was rejected. Bear with me, I need to look this part up:

[QUOTE=wiki]
Reunification rejected
Upon King Ondoher’s death in T.A. 1944, Gondor faced a constitutional crisis. Arvedui, King of Arthedain, Ondoher’s son-in-law, claimed the throne of Gondor as the Heir of Isildur and as the husband of Fíriel. Arvedui’s claim invoked an ancient Númenórean law of accession, which stated the eldest (remaining) child should succeed the king. However, led by the Steward Pelendur, the Council of Gondor rejected Arvedui’s claim on the grounds that neither Arnor nor Gondor had followed the Númenórean succession law and because Isildur had conferred rule of Gondor solely to the Line of Anárion.
[/QUOTE]

Aragorn needed to be proclaimed King of Gondor for his own merits and in the end he was. He did not properly have a clear claim to the throne, but he was Elendil’s heir.

Jim

186

[QUOTE=What Exit?]
…Aragorn needed to be proclaimed King of Gondor for his own merits and in the end he was. He did not properly have a clear claim to the throne, but he was Elendil’s heir…

[/QUOTE]

Quite so. And where would I be if he weren’t?

187

[QUOTE=Polycarp]
Any “magic” talents they may have are derived from them being the Wise, the Loremasters. (And, when the rubber hits the road, they may reveal their true nature by calling on heavenly forces of command to overcome evil, as Gandalf did with the Balrog [who is, by the way, a fallen Maia, subordinate to Sauron, who is another fallen Maia himself].)
[/QUOTE]

I believe he was a Maia of Morgoth. Did Sauron ever have any Maia of his own?

As to the topic of Free Will, I think it can get a bit confusing. Every sapient creature believes they have free will, but many, such as the elves, are what I think were called “creatures of destiny” or something like that. There is a certain amount of predestination to their lives. Humans (and perhaps hobbits) are different. One of the reasons they are so special is that they have a different relationship with destiny, and tend to act very unpredictably.

It is my personal feeling that the whole point of Middle Earth is for Eru to create truly independent beings (Edain) and then bring them unto him (the doom of men) in order for them to add their wholly original tune to the singing of the next world.

188

Ah–so that actually works into PJ’s text tamperings–if Aragorn could not claim Gondor until he had proven himself, why not go all introspective and wander a bit first? (plus it adds to his sexiness. Trust me on this one).
Didn’t the Shire end up with a few years of bountiful harvests and eve the kids born were fairer and blonder or some such, once Sam sprinkled that [del]pixie dust[/del] bit o’ earth from Lothlorien?

And here’s another question: what is the difference between Lothlorien and Lorien? I always thought it was Lothlorien, but I’ve seen both in the book and Viggo/Aragorn says “not idly do the leaves of Lorien fall” when he comes across the brooch Merry has left (TT-film). Which is it? Does “loth” refer to the people of the land of Lorien?

Re the free will. All the creatures in ME had it to some extent (except maybe the orcs)–Frodo could have chosen to stay in the Shire etc.

Off to make a Halloween laptop for #2 son (computer geek for TorT). Will start TT while I’m waiting for the glue to dry. (this is much more fun than grad school work)

189

[QUOTE=Elendil’s Heir]
Quite so. And where would I be if he weren’t?
[/QUOTE]

YOU’RE the little pudgy boy Arwen’s sees in her vision? :eek: You must have a lot of stories to tell…

:wink: :smiley:

190

[QUOTE=What Exit?]
Aragorn needed to be proclaimed King of Gondor for his own merits and in the end he was. He did not properly have a clear claim to the throne, but he was Elendil’s heir.
Jim
[/QUOTE]

Well, sort of, de facto. But de jure, Aragorn had a proper claim.

Elendil was King of Arnor, and high king of both Arnor and Gondor, ruling from Annuminas. His sons were co-kings of Gondor, Isildur at Minas Ithil, Anarion at Minas Anor, with their thrones set side by side in Osgiliath.

After the fall of Anarion and Elendil, Isildur took up the high kingship of both realms, and confirmed Meneldil his nephew as king in Gondor. But (according to JRRT) he never renounced his own royalty in Gondor, nor did he or his descendents renounce the claim to high kingship over all Gondor and Arnor.

In point of actual reality, Aragorn had to achieve what you describe to get kinged, but in point of law, his claim was pretty damn good.

191

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
YOU’RE the little pudgy boy Arwen’s sees in her vision? :eek: You must have a lot of stories to tell…

[/QUOTE]

Well, that was my many-greats-grandfather Eldarion, of course. But yes, I have a few tales from over the years.

192

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
Didn’t the Shire end up with a few years of bountiful harvests and eve the kids born were fairer and blonder or some such, once Sam sprinkled that [del]pixie dust[/del] bit o’ earth from Lothlorien?

And here’s another question: what is the difference between Lothlorien and Lorien? I always thought it was Lothlorien, but I’ve seen both in the book and Viggo/Aragorn says “not idly do the leaves of Lorien fall” when he comes across the brooch Merry has left (TT-film). Which is it? Does “loth” refer to the people of the land of Lorien?
[/QUOTE]

The Shire did indeed have its greatest year in memory after Sam sprinkled the faerie dust and planted the Mallorn. Indeed, an abnormal number of Hobbits were born with blond hair and the fruit was extra plentiful and extra sweet.

Lothlórien {Lórien of the Blossom, the Dreamflower} and Lorien {Dream Land}are both names for Galadriel’s realm. As the years passed, even the name of the woods shrank. It was first called Laurelindórinan when Galadriel had arrived and planted the Mallorn trees. Valley of Singing Gold
Before Galadriel it was simply Lindórinand Vale of the Land of the Singers.

Lothlórien, more than any other place mentioned in Middle Earth resembled the realms of the Faerie from Folklore and from “Smith of Wootton Major”*.

Jim

  • If you have not read this, look for this delightful little novella. It is a fun book. I need to give it to my daughter soon. She will probably enjoy it.
193

[QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan]
Well, sort of, de facto. But de jure, Aragorn had a proper claim.

Elendil was King of Arnor, and high king of both Arnor and Gondor, ruling from Annuminas. His sons were co-kings of Gondor, Isildur at Minas Ithil, Anarion at Minas Anor, with their thrones set side by side in Osgiliath.

After the fall of Anarion and Elendil, Isildur took up the high kingship of both realms, and confirmed Meneldil his nephew as king in Gondor. But (according to JRRT) he never renounced his own royalty in Gondor, nor did he or his descendents renounce the claim to high kingship over all Gondor and Arnor.

In point of actual reality, Aragorn had to achieve what you describe to get kinged, but in point of law, his claim was pretty damn good.
[/QUOTE]

Except the claim, while rightful was already rejected by Gondor by Aragorn’s ancestor. Apparently Gondor had decided to no longer honor the law. Note the case of Arvedui that I quoted above.

He could no more walk in an claim Gondor than Bonnie Prince Charles could claim Scotland.

Jim

194

[QUOTE=What Exit?]
The Shire did indeed have its greatest year in memory after Sam sprinkled the faerie dust and planted the Mallorn. Indeed, an abnormal number of Hobbits were born with blond hair and the fruit was extra plentiful and extra sweet.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, and it was also famous for its weddings. The bumper harvest also carried over into the quality of the beer, and for many years after a good pint of beer would be colloquially called “fourteen-twenty” by reference to this “ideal standard”.
Don’t sell Celeborn too short, by the way. He was very ancient and had hung around in some impressive company in his youth - just not quite on a par with his wife, who had seen the Light of the Trees and rubbed shoulders with Valar.

195

[QUOTE=What Exit?]
Except the claim, while rightful was already rejected by Gondor by Aragorn’s ancestor. Apparently Gondor had decided to no longer honor the law. Note the case of Arvedui that I quoted above.

He could no more walk in an claim Gondor than Bonnie Prince Charles could claim Scotland.

Jim
[/QUOTE]

It was not even so cut and dried there. Arvedui’s claim was rejected in favor of a descendent of the House of Anarion, and Arvedui was content to not dispute the choice of the dunedain of the south about this further, but it doesn’t appear the issue of the high kingship was settled.

And following that, Aragorn could (and did) claim descent from the House of Anarion via his ancestress Firiel. Remember in FOTR, sailing down the Anduin to see the Argonath, showing the image of the kings of Gondor, Isildur and Anarion. Aragorn stated he always wanted to see the image of his forebears.

OK, that’s about all the nits I can pick out of this case of Dunedainic law. :wink:

196

Lorien is:
a) First and foremost, an alternate name for the Vala charged with sleep, dreams, and aspirations.
b) His home in Valinor, which included gardens of healing and the like. This is where Frodo and Bilbo lived out such days as were left them after taking ship for the West, to be healed of the wounds and burden of the Ring.
c) A short form of Laurelindorinan, the Valley of Singing Gold, last surviving realm ruled by one of the Noldor in Middle Earth, which was more commonly shortened to Lothlorien, the Dream Flower at the end of the 3rd Age. (Note that the long name deliberately echoes the Golden Tree of the First Age.)

197

Arvedui (who was darn close to losing Arthedain thanks to Angmar, and in fact did a few years later) was not the heir, but rather someone who had a possible claim. The Council of Gondor decided in favor of a surviving member of the royal house, a heir of Anarion, at that time. Arvedui’s claim was not rejected as invalid; his arguments were countered, and he was passed over for someone with a better claim.

Aragorn, on the other hand, was the heir. And since the Stewards, by their own formula, ruled “until the return of the King,” there was nobody who could counterclaim the throne from him. He could have called himself Hobson’s Horse, because he was the only possible choice.

Quartz, I defer to your finding one sentence in the Silmarillion that identifies those alive at the time who are entitled, and quoting it as definitive proof of the accuracy of your POV. I just wish you’d been around to clarify matters for JRRT – he wrote a very poignant appendix to LOTR that revolves on Arwen’s need to make the choice: Eldar with her beloved father, or Edain with the love of her life.

198

[QUOTE=Polycarp]
Quartz, I defer to your finding one sentence in the Silmarillion that identifies those alive at the time who are entitled, and quoting it as definitive proof of the accuracy of your POV. I just wish you’d been around to clarify matters for JRRT – he wrote a very poignant appendix to LOTR that revolves on Arwen’s need to make the choice: Eldar with her beloved father, or Edain with the love of her life.
[/QUOTE]

I believe the LotR appendix should trump the Silmarillion as the Appendix was written by JRRT and the Silmarillion was stitched together from many clothes by Christopher.

Jim

199

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
The music is incredible–did the guy win an Oscar? I hope so.

[/QUOTE]

He (Howard Shore) won two – for FOTR & ROTK. For some obscure Academy rules reason, TT wasn’t nominated.

I don’t think we need to get hung up on the ME nature of free will – any more than we do in the real world. IMHO, they’re philosophically the same; I think the Catholic Church shrugs and says “it’s a mystery” how God can know how everything will come out, and yet we’re free to make choices that He knows in advance.

200

Ok, so on now to TT. But one more question re FOTR. Why does Aragorn reprmand Frodo re his mentioning of Gandalf wearing the elven ring? Aragorn says that such should not be said, not even to him outside of Lo`rien.

Costume laptop made. Now have to work at 0530, so won’t be a late night reading for me.

I like Boromir’s death seen in the movie better. Sean Bean did a great job there.