LOTR question(s)

Cafe Society
161

[QUOTE=well he’s back]
I love LOTR threads!

Two brief comments - Way earlier someone asked why the Gods interfered so little in Middle Earth. No one’s yet pointed out that it allows for that important element of Free Will. If everything had been predestined, or if some higher power had caused, say, Frodo to go on the quest he wouldn’t be such a hero. He was a hero because he chose to do it, and stuck with it, of his own free will.
[/QUOTE]

It’s not exactly clear if anyone in Middle-Earth actually has free will from the way the Ainulindalë is presented. Melkor acts out in the song, but everything he does turns out to be as Ilúvatar had intended. As he said"

Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."

In other words, he made Melkor do that. And so pretty much all that Melkor/Morgoth does thereafter would seem to be of Ilúvatar’s plan.

The only part where it seems that someone had Free Will is when Aulë makes the Dwarves. Ilúvatar implies that the Dwarves were not originally part of his plan, but that he adjusted to fit them in. And that’s the only time I can think of someone doing something that is explicitly not part of Ilúvatar’s plan.

Now, you could make an argument that the mortals, being different from the Ainur, Valar and Maiar both, might have Free Will… but I can’t find a quick reference confirming that. So it might just be that almost everything that happens in Arda is pre-ordained as planned by Ilúvatar in the Ainulindalë. The fact that the Valar are reluctant to interfere in Middle-Earth for fear of messing up Ilúvatar’s Plan argues that Free Will is possible – but Melkor thought much the same thing, and turned out he was pwned.

[QUOTE=What Exit?]
Mandos, more properly known as Námo was the Judge of the Valar, so perhaps it fell to him to judge those from Gollum, all the way up to Sauron.
[/QUOTE]

Nah. Mandos only dealt with Arda, and the Fate of Men lies beyond Arda. Tolkien was pretty clear that hobbits – and, hence, Gollum – shared the Fate of Men. So it’s all in Ilúvatar’s court.

162

Wait, whoa. What about Sauron and the making of the ring of power–was that not free will on the part of Sauron? Was that pre-ordained as well?

(this is one reason I struggle with religion–if it’s all foreknown, than nothing I do makes a difference. If I’m saved by God’s grace, same thing. And if so, God has a lot of explaining to do re suffering and child abuse and other horrors–that’s another thread).

[QUOTE=WhatExit?]
The ME religious overtones are a curious mix of Norse, Catholic and Finnish legends and beliefs.
[/QUOTE]

Makes perfect sense, given JRRT’s background and beliefs.

Why is Arwen considered the Evening Star and Galadriel the Morning Star–shouldn’t the two be contemporaries, instead of from different generations?

163

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
Why is Arwen considered the Evening Star and Galadriel the Morning Star–shouldn’t the two be contemporaries, instead of from different generations?
[/QUOTE]

They’re not contemporaries at all. Galadriel was of the 3rd generation of elves from Finwe, who awoke fully formed at Cuivienen. Finwe’s son Finarfin was Galadriel’s father. She lived for thousands and thousands of years in the light of Valinor before the first age of the sun began. She and her generation signified the dawn of the ages of the elves.

Meanwhile, Arwen was not only Galadriel’s granddaughter, but she wasn’t born until TA 241. She was the Eveningstar of her people, a sign of the twilight of their race in middle earth.

I guess I must be feeling better, I’m answering JRRT trivia again. Not enough energy to do more than hit or miss stuff yet.

Black breath is a bitch, in this age without Asëa aranion.

164

[QUOTE=What Exit?]
‘But if you would know, I am turning aside soon. I am going to have a
long talk with Bombadil: such a talk as I have not had in all my time. He is
a moss-gatherer, and I have been a stone doomed to rolling. But my rolling
days are ending, and now we shall have much to say to one another.’
[/QUOTE]

So what exatly did Gandalf mean with Tom being a moss-gatherer?

165

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
Whack-a-Mole–thank you! It looks very pretty. (I can’t imagine getting the rigby part, but it looks good!)
[/QUOTE]

It’s just the letters. Here is Elanor (note I dropped the second “e” as done earlier).

If you like here is an Elvish Online Transcriber and you can make up whatever you want. If you don’t download the appropriate font you need to have it output as a .PNG (graphic) file. Overall not a terribly useful thing but kinda cool…especially if you want something inscribed in Elvish on a pendant or something.

166

[QUOTE=Kotick]
So what exatly did Gandalf mean with Tom being a moss-gatherer?
[/QUOTE]

Tom stayed in one place for a long time, whereas Gandalf had spent 2000 years as a wanderer or the Grey Pilgrim. At some point, Tom established his own borders and never ranged much further than Farmer Maggots or Bree and mostly stayed within the Old Forest. So moss-gatherer is a play on the old saying that “A Rolling Stone gathers no Moss”. Therefore a moss-gatherer is one that stays put.

167

[QUOTE=Kotick]
So what exatly did Gandalf mean with Tom being a moss-gatherer?
[/QUOTE]

My guess…

“A rolling stone gathers no moss.”

Gandalf says he is a rolling stone going all over. Tom stays in one place.

168

Well, but why then does Gandalf have so much to talk to Tom about, didn’t he leave ME after Sauron was defeated?

169

[QUOTE=Kotick]
Well, but why then does Gandalf have so much to talk to Tom about, didn’t he leave ME after Sauron was defeated?
[/QUOTE]

He didn’t leave ME immediately. They hung around awhile after Sauron was killed.

170

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
Wait, whoa. What about Sauron and the making of the ring of power–was that not free will on the part of Sauron? Was that pre-ordained as well?
[/QUOTE]

Sorry if I wasn’t clear – it is clearly stated that Melkor’s actions were pre-ordained, so no Free Will for him. As that bit I quoted from Ilúvatar was addressing the rest of the Ainur – including the Valar and Maiar – it would seem that Sauron’s choices, too, were all part of Ilúvatar’s Plan.

Aulë maybe did something of his own volition in creating the Dwarves.

Beyond those, it’s pretty much speculation on who else may or may not have Free Will in Middle-Earth. Given Tolkien’s theological leanings, it’s likely that Men and Elves are supposed to have Free Will – but it’s still vague enough to be a topic open for debate.

Let’s forbear on wondering whether Tom Bombadil has Free Will, though, eh?

171

[QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan]
They’re not contemporaries at all. Galadriel was of the 3rd generation of elves from Finwe, who awoke fully formed at Cuivienen. Finwe’s son Finarfin was Galadriel’s father. She lived for thousands and thousands of years in the light of Valinor before the first age of the sun began. She and her generation signified the dawn of the ages of the elves.

Meanwhile, Arwen was not only Galadriel’s granddaughter, but she wasn’t born until TA 241. She was the Eveningstar of her people, a sign of the twilight of their race in middle earth.

[/QUOTE]

That’s why I asked–I realized they weren’t contemporaries. I had been told tht Galadriel was Arwen’s grandmother, but their titles confused me. I would think that if you have one female titled MorningStar, you would have another named EveningStar and they would get their names at roughly the same time in legend. That didin’t happen, but the reason you give makes sense. :slight_smile:

I’m glad you’re feeling better. Perhaps a song or two in Elvish will help you to sleep?
So, did Gandalf have free will of a kind in ME? (I mean beside making cool fireworks).

I’m in Rivendell, about to start the council. I’m bound to have more questions tomorrow.

172

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
So, did Gandalf have free will of a kind in ME? (I mean beside making cool fireworks).
[/QUOTE]

I would say he did, which is why he was hesitant to take the assignment of being one of the 5 Istari. He risked much in journeying through Moria and invading Dol Guldur.

He knew or hinted that there was some force at work at times, but things still needed to be done and accomplished for there to be any hope of destroying Sauron. In the end, it was just chance that set in motion the destruction of Smaug and on the way, his hand picked Hobbit of remarkable stock, just happen to recover the One Ring. I think Gandalf hinted that some of this was also fate.

Jim

173

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
That’s why I asked–I realized they weren’t contemporaries. I had been told tht Galadriel was Arwen’s grandmother, but their titles confused me. I would think that if you have one female titled MorningStar, you would have another named EveningStar and they would get their names at roughly the same time in legend. That didin’t happen, but the reason you give makes sense. :slight_smile: .
[/QUOTE]
Galadriel never held a title of Morning Star. Gimli compares her to the morning and Arwen to the evening but that’s about as far as it goes.

174

For the record, Galadriel was, according to Wikipedia (which I’m skeptical of in this case) born in “Years of the Trees 1,362.” But “Valian Years” differed immensely from those in Middle Earth, and Tolkien at different times advanced different onversion factors. Using the oldest and most consistently used, 10-for-1, that would be 13,620 years after the creation of the world. The Sun was created in Year 3,000 (i.e., 30,000 ME years). The First Age continued after creation of the Sun for another 590 (ME solar) years, and the Second Age was 3,441 years long. Frodo encounters Galadriel in Lothlorien in T.A. 3021. We can therefore establish that Galadriel is 23,432 years old when Frodo meets her. Elrond is by comparison a mere stripling of 6,527. :smiley: Arwen is 2,780; her fiancé (at that time) Aragorn, was 90. (Remember that the Royal House of the Dunedain, with Maia an Elvish blood, had great longevity.)

As sa minor note, Tolkien never made this crystal clear (so what else is new? :dubious: ) but there are some strong suggestions in his writings that the choice of kindred was given to: Earendil, Elwing, Elros Tar-Minyatur*, Elrond, and Elrond’s children (but not Elros’s): Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen* – but that the choice had to be made by Elrond’s children before Elrond himself took ship for Aman. All but the two starred, I believe, chose to be of the Eldar.

175

[QUOTE=Humble Servant]
that the black atmosphere was being provided by the head Nazgul–darkening men’s souls and what not. When he got offed, production halted and the wind which was already there (naturally or via Elrond–ring of air) blew away the remnants.

YLOTRMV.
[/QUOTE]

Nyetski. At the time when the ram Grond broke in the gate of Minas Tirith, the darkness was up and running, and the Lord of the Nazgul was confronted by Gandalf. They had their face-off, which closed with the Wraithlord taunting Gandalf to “Die now and curse in vain!”. But as Gandalf sat their calmly on Shadowfax, a cock crowed, because a rent had appeared in the cloud and day was breaking. Then the horns of Rohan sounded in response, and the Lord of the Nazgul said “Oh, bugger,” and went off to deal with the new emergency (and Gandalf had to let him, because Pippin brought him the news that Denethor was about to burn himself and Faramir alive).

The darkness flowed out of Mordor - it was Sauron’s work, not the Lord of the Nazgul’s. It broke ahead of schedule for reasons that were not gone into, but not because the LOTN was dead - he was still fully functional at the time.

176

[QUOTE=Polycarp]
As sa minor note, Tolkien never made this crystal clear (so what else is new? :dubious: ) but there are some strong suggestions in his writings that the choice of kindred was given to: Earendil, Elwing, Elros Tar-Minyatur*, Elrond, and Elrond’s children (but not Elros’s): Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen* – but that the choice had to be made by Elrond’s children before Elrond himself took ship for Aman. All but the two starred, I believe, chose to be of the Eldar.
[/QUOTE]

In the Silmarillion it is made explicitly clear that the choice is restricted to Earendil, Elwing, Elros, and Elrond.

177

I am past Moria now and they are leaving Lothlorien. At the council, Gandalf reveals some things that I never paid much attention to. The most important one concerns Sarumon. What a skunk–apparently he was in with Sauron for a lot longer than I had first thought. He kept persuading TPTB to leave Sauron alone etc.

How could he get away with this for so long? The “wizards” can’t scan one another or telepathy or something? What about Galadriel. She seems to be one powerful chick, by all accounts–did she know? I ask this because of what happens in Rohan with Theoden. If the two wizards can communicate via a possessed body (going by the film now, so bear with me), why can’t they get into one another’s heads? Gandalf even fears that Sarumon has used Radaghast as a dupe. So, what’s with these wizard’s powers?
QtM-here is some miruvor. It will do you good.
I think PJ could have had the Nine blindfolded to walk through Lothlorien, no? That wouldn’t have added any time to the movie. It’s weird to do this: I am familiar with the books, but no more than that. I know the movies well. Now, rereading them, I find (often) word for word lifted from the books, but not in the same scene as the books (which so far is ok). I also come across scenes in the book that are faithfully depicted in the films. And then there are just so many oddities…

178

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
I am past Moria now and they are leaving Lothlorien. At the council, Gandalf reveals some things that I never paid much attention to. The most important one concerns Sarumon. What a skunk–apparently he was in with Sauron for a lot longer than I had first thought. He kept persuading TPTB to leave Sauron alone etc.

How could he get away with this for so long? The “wizards” can’t scan one another or telepathy or something? What about Galadriel. She seems to be one powerful chick, by all accounts–did she know? I ask this because of what happens in Rohan with Theoden. If the two wizards can communicate via a possessed body (going by the film now, so bear with me), why can’t they get into one another’s heads? Gandalf even fears that Sarumon has used Radaghast as a dupe. So, what’s with these wizard’s powers?
[/QUOTE]

I don’t think Galadriel ever fully trusted Saruman. AS far as Saruman being in league with Sauron far longer than thought, I think you misinterpreted part of that. Saruman did not want to move on Sauron in Dol Guldor earlier, as Saruman was searching for the one ring himself. When Saruman finally suspected The Ring was lost near the Anduin, he let the White Council act as he feared Sauron would locate The Ring, before he did.

This drove me crazy. I understand some of the deletions of materials, but I never understood the changes. PJ professed a deep love for the works, there was more material than even three long movies could handle and yet he added stuff in. I did not like it. It bothered me. I have only seen each movie once, when they were released. At some point, I need to break down and re-watch all three in a weekend.

179

[QUOTE=What Exit?]
… This drove me crazy. I understand some of the deletions of materials, but I never understood the changes. PJ professed a deep love for the works, there was more material than even three long movies could handle and yet he added stuff in. I did not like it. It bothered me. I have only seen each movie once, when they were released. At some point, I need to break down and re-watch all three in a weekend.
[/QUOTE]

I know what you mean, but I think we have to allow PJ some artistic license. He had a vision of what he wanted the trilogy to do, and sometimes he added stuff to support that vision (Arwen’s more prominent role, Theoden’s virtual “possession” by Saruman, the origins of the Uruk-hai, etc.). I don’t always agree with the choices he made, but overall I think he did an excellent job with an overwhelming amount of text.

And may I say, I think you’ve got a kickass Tolkien weekend ahead!

180

[QUOTE=Elendil’s Heir]
I know what you mean, but I think we have to allow PJ some artistic license. He had a vision of what he wanted the trilogy to do, and sometimes he added stuff to support that vision (Arwen’s more prominent role, Theoden’s virtual “possession” by Saruman, the origins of the Uruk-hai, etc.). I don’t always agree with the choices he made, but overall I think he did an excellent job with an overwhelming amount of text.

And may I say, I think you’ve got a kickass Tolkien weekend ahead!
[/QUOTE]

I know, I am strictly being a nitpicking fan. I normally scoff at people that complain about changes in books. I am one of the few that enjoyed “Starship Troopers” the movie and love “Starship Troopers” the book. I really enjoyed Narnia, Jaws, The Godfather, Field of Dreams, etc. If you make a good movie, I don’t worry about it being different from the book. My problems with Postman, was the movie just stunk, not that it had little to do with the great book I loved.

For Lord of the Rings, I guess I had a higher standard, I recognize PJ did a great job; the visualization of ME was awesome. The music worked well. The acting overall was very good. (Except Elrond & Arwen). It was a great job, but I cannot get over the changes. I know the books too well; better than any other books by far. Every change was jarring to me, as I always knew what was suppose to be happening next and usually the dialogue that should be used.

The problem lays in me, not PJ’s work.

Jim