I got it from this:
I agree, but there is no resolution to this debate.
Lightray: It does not look like there is a definitive answer. I always interpreted the line to mean the original Ents were Maiar. I am not go to bother looking, but there is some similar hints that the Great Eagles at Taniquetil were of the Maiar.
Whack-a-Mole, I didn’t recall that note, however in reading the Silmarillion, Christopher does not appear to have resolve the text to agree with the idea of only 7 Balrogs. I think if we went carefully through it, we would find more than 7.
Jim
Well…that note is from JRRT himself and I think in the books only 3 are explicitly mentioned. Gothmog, one that is later killed by Glorfindel and then Durin’s Bane is fought by Gandalf.
I guess that is where Tolkein’s note mentions at least three comes from. However from the reading it certainly seems implied there are more than just those three although it is not explicit.
This is very true. There is constant theme of the world becoming less magical and powers diminishing throughout Tolkein. First we have Valar battling Valar. Then we have super-elves battling Valar. Then it is elves and men battling a Maia. Finally it comes down to just men battling a reconstituted and much weaker Maia.
Really, any major character from battle n-1 would wipe the floor with anyone in battle n. One pestilential fart from Morgoth would have laid low all the armies of men in The Lord of the Rings.
This is really interesting in that Tolkein is the only author I can think of who does this. In every instance I can think of battles tend to get bigger and stakes higher over time.
I like Tom Bombadil. I can see why he was left out of the film, but he is a great character. I like his ambiguity and that Gandalf knows and respects him, but refuses to use him as a refuge. Tom and Goldberry should stay as they are. It is odd that they don’t see him on the way back (or perhaps they don’t go through the forest-can’t remember).
Barrowights never show up again, either, in the further books of LOTR, but they at least are based on actual legendary “creatures”.
Page 201. They just received their “swords”. I just noticed that there is link between these knives and the Witch King of Angmar. I am supposing that these swords were used in a battle to fight in Angmar, and that is why Merry’s wounding of the Witch King is so severe.
I’d like to think that someday all the pieces fall together, but somehow I doubt that. The subject is so broad, with different versions and much (too much?) debate. But I’ll have fun with it for now.
Well, sorta. Here’s an incomplete list of Aragorn’s names:
[ol][li]Estel – given him by his mother, it means "hope"and references a prophecy about him. It was the name he was known by in boyhood and youth, in Rivendell where he was raised by his mother and Elrond.[/li][li]Aragorn [son of Arathorn] – his name as Chieftain of the Dunedain and heir of Isildur. The patronymic is obligatory only when he is formally named, much as in the Middle East today. The prefix “Ara-” literally means “king” and is a tag to every name in the family, as a reminder of the unbroken claim of the family. Remember that Arvedui Last-King was never dethroned; it was merely that the ruin of Arnor after his war with Angmar was so utter that his son refused to assert kingship over the devastation, preferring instead to lead the Faithful Dunedain to guard what little remained.[/li][li]Strider – English translation of his common appelation (in Westron) among non-Dunedain non-Eldar in Eriador.[/li][li]Thorongil– (done from memory, so I need to be checked) – the byname he assumed when he served Denethor’s father Ecthelion II in Gondor 50 years or so back. (Obviously he couldn’t use his own name-- it would be tantamount to prematurely claiming the throne.)[/li][li]Elessar – His “royal name” as King of Gondor and Arnor. It ties to Galadriel’s gift to him of the Elessar, the semi-magic white stone with roots back in the deep past, and a prophecy she had received that it [the Elessar gem] was to be passed on by her to someone who bore its name.[/li][li]Telcontar – An “assumed epithet” where the full form is Elessar Telcontar, similar to the Kings of Gondor who defeated Rhun or Umbar and assumed the epithets Romendacil or Umbardacil. It is, quite simply, the Sindarin for “Strider” in humble commemoration of how he got his throne.[/ol][/li]
Your last statement is almost precisely on target. The Istari (Saruman, Gandalf, etc.) are not “wizards” in the usual sense of “master magician” but rather called that in the same sense that the Noldor, the High Elves, were once termed Gnomes – they are the ones with Wisdom (Gnosis) in each case. The conception appears to have evolved – Gandalf enjoys using his skills as wizard to make fireworks, for example-- but the underlying fact is – they are incarnate Angels (Maiar) sent by the Powers (Valar) who are the vicegerents of God (Elu Iluvatar, and no arguments – Tolkien intentionally equates him with the Judaeo-Christian God, 140 centuries pre-Incarnation of Jesus. He makes this excruciatingly clear in some of his letters and unpublished writings on matters metaphysical. Any “magic” talents they may have are derived from them being the Wise, the Loremasters. (And, when the rubber hits the road, they may reveal their true nature by calling on heavenly forces of command to overcome evil, as Gandalf did with the Balrog [who is, by the way, a fallen Maia, subordinate to Sauron, who is another fallen Maia himself].)
The barrow blades were given to them by Bombadil. The blades were forged in Arnor with spells specifically to help fight those from Mordor. Presumably this was enough to allow Merry to use his blade to strike the Witch King and distract him long enough for Eowyn to finish the job.
As to Tom, Gandalf escorts the Hobbits most of the way back, as they leave Bree he says:
I love that quote, I really do.
The Swords were forged long ago when the Men of the North were actively fighting the Witch King. I have always **interpreted ** the Barrow Blades as being enchanted against the spells on the Witch King and that without Merry’s strike, Eowyn’s mighty blow would have done no more than robbed the Witch King of yet another earthly shape.
Jim
True, but: The Valar are not pure and absolute cloying Goodness. They can fuck up, and fuck up they do, royally. Including letting Morgoth (Melkor’s bad-guy name) loose when they capture him the first time he goes evil, because he seems to have repented. Being taken in after the final defeat of Morgoth by Sauron for the exact same reason. Heck, hiding their immortal asses in Aman (Valinor) rather than doing the job they were given and taking care of the problems of Middle-Earth – one they never learned to do right. Aule creating the Dwarves (which was NOT in Eru’s plan). Ulmo, the Neptune-equivalent Vala, working on his own to save the day when the rest of the Valar were turning their backs on Beleriand. Honest to God, if Der Trihs were in Tolkien’s Elder Days, his denunciations of religion posted on this board would shrink to “They’re kind of naughty” beside what he’d have to say about the Valar – and be right in his assessment! 
The Blue Wizards: Alatar and Pallando. Blue because it was Orome’s color, and they were of his following. When they left ship at the Grey Havens, they immediately headed East, to Rhun and beyond. Traditional wisdom on LOTR and Tolkieniana says they failed and/or were subverted by Sauron, but Qadgop had some information suggesting that what they’d done in the east weakened Sauron’s levies enough to enable Minas Tirith etc. to hold out against them. Details when Qadgop returns, I hope.
Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn’ Ambar-metta.
Elvish (Quenya IIRC) for “Out of the Great Sea into Middle Earth I am come. In this place I will abide, and my heirs, unto the end of the World.”
Spoken on three famous occasions:
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By Elendil escaping from the Fall of Numeor, as he arrives at Pelargir, to take possession of Gondor and Arnor.
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By Aragorn purposefully quoting Elendil, as he arrives at the Pelennor Fields in the ships of Umbar, after defeating the Corsirs at Pelargir. It serves as a renewal of his claim, as Elendil’s rightful heir. (Please ignore Cleveland magistrates assuming the role :p)
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By Qadgop the Mercotan, on emerging from swimming in Lake Michigan to lay claim to his lakeside home.
Heh. First chuckle I’ve had in nearly 2 weeks. Thanks for remembering that, Poly.
Hey, you don’t get off that easy. We are expecting Pearls of Wisdom, and corrections to many of the WAGs being made.
Hope you are feeling better at last, did you ever get that Athelas?
Jim
Polycarp, I think Telcontar was more like the name of Elessar’s Ruling House, and not so much an additional personal or regnal name for him.
Tolkien, musing on what had become of the Blue Wizards, never quite made up his mind. He even (surprise!) created alternative names for them. I believe his later writings suggested that they had become the foci of evil cults, but we’ll never know for sure.
I resemble that remark.
that the black atmosphere was being provided by the head Nazgul–darkening men’s souls and what not. When he got offed, production halted and the wind which was already there (naturally or via Elrond–ring of air) blew away the remnants.
YLOTRMV.
Just for kicks here is your name (eleanorigby) in Elvish lettering. Note it is a picture format since the fonts for it won’t work here.
I love LOTR threads!
Two brief comments - Way earlier someone asked why the Gods interfered so little in Middle Earth. No one’s yet pointed out that it allows for that important element of Free Will. If everything had been predestined, or if some higher power had caused, say, Frodo to go on the quest he wouldn’t be such a hero. He was a hero because he chose to do it, and stuck with it, of his own free will.
Secondly, I don’t get the dissatifaction with the eagles. They don’t really save the day in ROTK. Yes they rescued Gandalf, but that was explained by the message sent by Radagast, or in the movie, the moth. But in the big battle at the Black Gate, they didn’t turn the tide, they just helped. Of course they did fly in to Mordor to get Frodo and Sam, but that was just a short hop for them then.
Lastly - Elanorigby - I like your way of watching the movies; that’s what I do. What the parts I love in the movies, re-read the books for the rest.
I understand them not meddling in the internal affairs of ME and let the people there get on with it. But in this case it is their own guys mucking things up. First Melkor then Sauron. I see nothing wrong with them thinking that if they shouldn’t meddle in ME then they need to stop those of theirs who do.
It’s their job IMO.
But it’s not just LOTR where the Eagles suddenly just show up at the crucial hour and change things–they save the dwarves and Bilbo from the wolves as well.
They just seem to Show Up and Are Never Heard From Again. Seems suspicious to me. And why not just have Frodo ride one close to Mordor? Or have Gandalf use one to get to Gondor when he goes to “research” the ring early on? If they’re such an integral part of the world, they need to show themselves a bit more.
It’s a minor thing, but it does remind me in odd way of the James Bond films–like when Austin Powers (or the evil guy) says, “we’re going to kill you in an unusual and time consuming way.” and his son says, “but I’ve got a gun in my room–why don’t I just fetch it and blow him away?”
It drags in reality to think about the Eagles etc logically, but sometimes I can’t help it.
Aragron just went to look for athelas for Frodo’s wound. I find it interesting that Frodo shouted out what he did (Gelbereth etc). I have no idea what it means, but it seems to have daunted his attackers. (why not put that in the movie? It’s one line!) But it shows that there is a battle of good vs evil going on in Frodo. I think reading so many of these threads has had an effect on me. I am reading the books more informed now, and I see some of the structure of the world instead of just the story. It’s cool.
QtM–I hope you are feeling better.
Whack-a-Mole–thank you! It looks very pretty. (I can’t imagine getting the rigby part, but it looks good!)
Interesting stuff about Gollum from letter 181.
So, is there an ultimate God in ME who would judge Gollum?
(cannot resist the parallel to HP-with Voldy being this wretched snivelling creature in the end at King’s Cross. I thought this a failing of Rowling–to show this lack of mercy. But perhaps not?)
Is there a source of ultimate, undying love in ME or it’s history? Is there a heaven-would that be the UL? or is that only for Elves?
Back after dinner to read some more.
The Ultimate God or Creator in ME is Eru Ilúvatar. Tolkien never talks about him in terms of judgement, but Tolkien was a strong Roman Catholic so Eru was probably as much the judge as the RCC God would be.
Mandos, more properly known as Námo was the Judge of the Valar, so perhaps it fell to him to judge those from Gollum, all the way up to Sauron.
The ME religious overtones are a curious mix of Norse, Catholic and Finnish legends and beliefs.
Jim