Shelob is the one that Frodo fights; she’s an unknown-many-times granddaughter of Ungoliant, who was even bigger. How big? Well… not really clear. Big enough to spin silk between mountains of vaguely largish distances. But big. Shelob was rather a pipsqueak by comparison.
The attercops and tomnoddies that Bilbo fights in Mirkwood in the Hobbit are probably other descendants of Ungoliant. As are some other giant spiders that I vaguely recall pop up briefly later in the Silmarillion.
I rather expect JRRT was either terrified by, or fascinated by, spiders as a kid.
No need to - Eleanor IS Elvish (Sindarin, specifically). El=“star”. Anor=“sun”. Elanor = “sun-star”. (Modern English spelling of the name just adds an extra letter e).
(The flower was growing in Lothlorien, by the way, on the mound of Cerin Amroth.)
No. Frodo fights Shelob who is an offspring of Ungoliant. Ungoliant and Melkor destroyed the Two Trees of Valinor. At that point Melkor was far more powerful than Ungoliant. Melkor damaged the trees and Ungoliant poisoned them and drained them of their sap killing the trees then the two escape. Due to her devouring the sap (light I think) she becomes much more powerful and demands the Silmarils be given to her but Melkor refused so she attacks Melkor. Melkor would have been done for but his anhuish is heard all over ME and his contingent of Balrogs come and save him and drive Ungoliant off. As to her fate I believe she “devoured herself” at the end (after having many offspring) from famine.
Of Ungoliant some things are unclear. Among them whether she is actually a Maiar. If she is then besides Melian she would be the only Maiar to have offspring in ME (and she has a lot of them).
Maia are spirits. They take on the forms of creatures and once they do, they often keep those forms until their death. The Great Eagles, the earliest Ents, the Werewolves of the first age who were probably the forefathers of the Wargs, the Balrogs that were once numerous and many other creatures were all spirits that became tied to a physical shape. In this regard the 5 Wizards took on the shape of elder human males.
The eagles are not descended of the Maiar. Like the dwarves and the ents, they are mortal races created by Manwë, and by Aulë and Yavanna respectively, with the aid/blessing of Illúvatar.
I thought that there were only 7 Balrogs in ME working for Melkor and most were killed in the War of Wrath except for Durin’s Bane who was who Gandalf fought much, much later.
And while Balrogs are Maiar I always thought there was something different about them. That even as Maiar they were spirits of fire or…something…that would separate them from the likes of Gandalf.
Just to put the sheer godawfulness of Ungoliant into perspective, the Sun and the Moon were created from the last fruit and flower of the Two Trees, and their light was just a feeble remnant of the Trees in their glory - so she was able to consume and utterly destroy pure elemental Light on a cosmic scale. Compared to that, Shelob was a minor pest.
Please note that “Maia” is the singular and “Maiar” is the plural.
I don’t mean to interfere with the other questions here, but since this is
a LOTR thread, I’m tempted to ask about one thing that always confused me
in the books:
who is Tom Bombadil?
He is left out of the movies, I guess since he really isn’t criticall to the plot,
although it is he who rescues the hobbits from the barrow-wight and gives them
weapons found in the treasure hoarded underground.
He seems to me as a merry jester prancing around in the forrest without any purpose.
He is mentioned to somewhat of the oldest “creatures” in ME, but I can’t find any
relation of him to the maiar or the valar.
Was Tom just an idea JRRT played with but forgot to develop further? The wiki page on Tom Bombadil is only confusing.
Reread the passage about the Ents. I think you missed something. I don’t have access currently.
There was something different about Balrogs. IRC, the were spirits from outside the world with an affinity to fire. The Maia are the spirits that chose to come to the world and help in its creation.
Tom deserves his own thread and if you search, I think you will find a few.
He is an enigma. He is unknown, he is ultimately a doll that belonged to Tolkien’s daughter that Tolkien had already spun tales about and he ended up in the story and never got edited out of the books. To Tolkien he represented mystery. There are some things that not even the wise or the authors know. The speculation on who and what he is is rampant. Take your choice on anything from a powerful spirit that never worked with the Valar, to a manifestation of Eru himself.
Everyone seemed FAR more powerful in “old” ME than “current” ME.
I mean in the old ME it was an Elf (Ecthelion of the Fountain) who slays Gothmog…the greatest of all the Balrogs. In present day it took Gandalf, a Maia, 10 days of non-stop fighting to slay Durin’s Bane and Gandalf is killed as well (sorta).
I was reading it last night (looking up Aulë’s workshop), and the Eagles and Ents come up when Yavanna goes to Manwë to whine about Aulë getting to make the Dwarves. Manwë recalls that they were in the Ainulindalë, which makes Yavanna happy. From what I recall of the passage, there was absolutely no mention of Maiar creating them or spawning them.
There might be some confusion with Tolkien’s habit of describing things as “spirits entering” and “spirits leaving”, but I usually interpret that as spirit = “life-force, soul” and not spirit = Spirit (i.e., Maiar).
Aye…Tom is indeed an enigma and there is much speculation. That he is in some way “special” or different is clear. He puts on the One Ring and is totally non-plussed by it (doesn’t even turn invisible). From that most consider him quite powerful, perhaps the most powerful being in all of ME but just what he is exactly no one knows.
The only other debate about ME that approaches this is if Balrogs have wings (really).
I find no note on the numbers of Balrogs, but after several were slain in Gondolin, there still remained more to be slain in the Great Battle and yet still remained a few. So, I don’t see 7 as a reasonable number for the Balrogs. Where do you remember that from?
Yes, by the way, Glorifindel mentioned Tom Bombadil holding out until Sauron had conquered all others. There is too much in the Coucil of Elrond to quote.
Peter Jackson joked in an interview that he was going to have Frodo & Co. come to a fork in the road not long after leaving Bree, see a sign with “T. BOMBADIL, ESQ.” on it and an arrow pointing the way, and hear singing in the distance. Then they’d look at each other, shrug, and go down the other road.
As I’d alluded to, when Tolkien is talking of “spirits” he does not always mean “Maiar (or Valar).” Both men and elves are also referred to as having spirits and as being spirits. Elves particularly – Fëanor is described as having a spirit of fire, and his mother’s spirit flees her body to the Halls of Mandos. And neither one of them is a Maiar.
I read that as the Ents getting spirits from afar just like the Elves and Men do, not that Maiar will go possess some trees to make Ents of.
