[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
This doesn’t answer your question directly, but the gods on Mt Olympus didn’t do such a hot job of policing their own, either. It’s a god thing. 
[/QUOTE]
Well…the Valar, except Melkor, are good guys. The Olympian gods even at their best were hardly “good” and squabbled all the time. They were the original Soap Operas for their day.
[QUOTE=squeegee]
I thought the Valar were still gun-shy after giving the Edain shangra-numenor, and as a result getting disrespected by Tar-whatsisname.
[/QUOTE]
Ar-Pharazôn. The Tar’s were usually the Good Kings.
[QUOTE=squeegee]
Aha:
[/QUOTE]
Ok, but it does not show the Valar did it and we do have Sam’s timely plea to Galadriel.
[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
Why would Sauron calling Aragorn “Elessar” be a temptation for Aragorn? It didn’t work.
And of course, now I want to know all about the Blue Wizards and why no red or green or yellow or lavendar ones…
(and what significance, if any, does the Arkenstone have–bouncing over to The Hobbit for a minute, but this is how my mind works).
And lastly, can anyone render my name (just the Eleanor part) in Elvish? I have always liked the serendipity of my name and elanor–the flower from someplace in ME, and Sam’s first girl’s name, IMS.
[/QUOTE]
Sauron did not call Aragorn “Elessar” in the book that I know of, nor would it make sense.
There is some info on the Blue Wizards but not much and nothing pertinent. just know they too did not succeed.
The Arkenstone was a magical gem found in Erebor by Thrain I, first King under the mountain. It was probably made and buried by Aule when Middle-Earth was still be made, but that is only a weak guess. It had little significance in the grand scheme.
When you say render your name into Elven, do you mean Elven Script or just the Elven equivalence?
El = Star, you see that in many Elvish and Dunedain names and -anor = sun. So Elanor = “Sun Star” along with being a beautiful gold flower that grows in Lothlorien with a 5 pointed star shape.
Jim
[QUOTE=Lightray]
[QUOTE=What Exit?]
I was counting Aule’s workshop.
[/QUOTE]
It’s kind of ambiguous in the Silmarillion where Aulë’s workshop where he made the forefathers of the dwarves was – it says he made them “in the darkness of Middle-Earth” and in secret “in a hall under a mountain in Middle-Earth”, which would imply some place not in Aman. Seems likely he’d’ve gone some place where another Vala or a Maia wouldn’t have just dropped in.
[/QUOTE]
You are absolutely correct, I mis-remembered that one. Here is the passage:
Thank you,
Jim
PS (Where is QtM, I hope he is ok, he was very sick all week)
If you can, find a map of Middle Earth at the time of the Silmarillion, and compare it to the time of the Lord of the Rings. When that map changed was the last time the Valar interfered directly in Middle Earth. It’s not something they do lightly.
That said, they indirectly intervene all over the place, and I wouldn’t put it past Manwë to send a good strong wind when needed. And the fact that Sam says he’d ask Galadriel for clear sunlight doesn’t mean anything: The only reason he asks her is because she’s the greatest being he’s ever encountered, and he doesn’t even know of the Valar.
Sam spent all his childhood listening to Bilbo’s stories about the elves. I’m pretty sure he’d’ve known about the Valar. He just hadn’t met any, but he’d met Galadriel who had seen the light of Aman and had given Frodo a phial of light, so she’d’ve been a good association to sunlight.
'night all. 
[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
The whole catapult thing. The rate and way the orcs do it, you’d think that the whole city would fall down in short order.
[/QUOTE]
This is surely just PJ’s style. Everything *must * be totally overdone and cartoonish. Same as how at Helm’s Deep the books have a considerable army defending the walls but PJ has to change it such that 12 boyscouts armed with a single wooden ruler and two pocket knives defend the place against an army of millions. I don’t think there’s much point in trying to make sense out of it. He’s a doofus.
[QUOTE=Chronos]
If you can, find a map of Middle Earth at the time of the Silmarillion, and compare it to the time of the Lord of the Rings. When that map changed was the last time the Valar interfered directly in Middle Earth. It’s not something they do lightly.
That said, they indirectly intervene all over the place, and I wouldn’t put it past Manwë to send a good strong wind when needed. And the fact that Sam says he’d ask Galadriel for clear sunlight doesn’t mean anything: The only reason he asks her is because she’s the greatest being he’s ever encountered, and he doesn’t even know of the Valar.
[/QUOTE]
It could have been Manwë, but we know pretty well know Galadriel was paying some attention to these Hobbits. We know how she could observe them. I believe she had the power to intercede on their behalf.
There is no indication that Manwë would have chosen this moment to finally intercede and if we assume he did, than we are back to the debate of why didn’t they just fly Frodo in on a Giant Eagle? Why didn’t the Valar just come collect their wayward members and why anything that took place, took place.
If we substitute in Lady Galadriel, nothing else needs to be explained. It is the simplest answer. No divine intervention was required, just the most powerful elf left in Middle-Earth using one of the Three.
[QUOTE=What Exit?]
It could have been Manwë, but we know pretty well know Galadriel was paying some attention to these Hobbits. We know how she could observe them.
[/quote]
We do? I don’t recall that, please help me out. I recall that she was surprised that Gandalf was not with them when the Fellowship showed up in Lorien, so her gaze seems imperfect.
Re: Lady G intervening. Actually, that’s a neat theory. I’d like it to be true, very much. I just don’t see enough hints in the text to hang my hat on.
[QUOTE=Chronos]
It’s debateable, actually. She says that she chooses, as Luthien did, to be counted among mortals, but it’s not at all clear (to me, at least) that that choice was hers to make. Elrond and his brother Elros were given that choice, but Elros’ sons resented their father’s choice (and hence presumably could not themselves choose), so I don’t see any reason to suppose that Elrond’s children had the choice, either. And while Arwen does eventually die, she dies of grief, which is one of the ways in which Elves can die (but which humans generally can’t).
[/QUOTE]
Ahh! Actually found an answer to this. Apparently it is a choice Arwen can make (bolding mine).
[QUOTE=Chronos]
It’s debateable, actually. She says that she chooses, as Luthien did, to be counted among mortals, but it’s not at all clear (to me, at least) that that choice was hers to make. Elrond and his brother Elros were given that choice, but Elros’ sons resented their father’s choice (and hence presumably could not themselves choose), so I don’t see any reason to suppose that Elrond’s children had the choice, either. And while Arwen does eventually die, she dies of grief, which is one of the ways in which Elves can die (but which humans generally can’t).
[/QUOTE]
I think the point is that Arwen gets to choose not because she is herself a half-Elf but because she has married a Man. That’s much how it played out for Luthien who was wholly immortal. Arwen doesn’t die of grief - she gets the same power that the Numenoreans had, to decide “OK, it’s time to go” and die voluntarily. Aragorn, on his deathbed, suggested that she repent of her choice and go into the West after all, but she said that it was too late - the decision had already been made.
[QUOTE=squeegee]
Aha:
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRRT
“‘Look at it, Mr. Frodo!’ said Sam. ‘Look at it! The wind’s changed. Something’s happening. He’s not having it all his own way. His darkness is breaking up out in the world there. I wish I could see what is going on!’
It was the morning of the fifteenth of March, and over the vale of Anduin the Sun was rising above the eastern shadow, and the southwest wind was blowing. Théoden lay dying on the Pelennor Fields.
As Frodo and Sam stood and gazed, the rim of light spread all along the line of the Ephel Dúath, and there they saw a shape, moving at a great speed out of the West, at first only a black speck against the glimmering strip above the mountain-tops, but growing, until it plunged like a bolt into the dark canopy and passed high above them. As it went it sent out a long shrill cry, the voice of a Nazgûl; but this cry no longer held any terror for them: it was a cry of woe and dismay, ill tidings for the Dark Tower. The Lord of the Ringwraiths had met his doom.”
[/QUOTE]
In addition, it should be noted that Lorien was under assault a second time (of 3) on this date (March 15). Galadriel was not responsible for this change in the wind, as she was pretty busy working in defense of Lorien. I always thought it was something to do with Manwe (tacit) as he was the wind, baby!
Umm… that the gift to choose is passed to the children of Elrond isn’t in my copy of the Silmarillion (p249, Harper & Collins). And Arwen states that she has to make the choice of Luthien, not Elwing.
[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole]
He destroyed the Two Trees of Valinor and stole the Silmarils (among many other naughty things).
[/QUOTE]
Nitpick: he destroyed the pillars and lights at Almaren; he merely smote the trees of Valinor and it was Ungoliant who killed them with her poison.
[QUOTE=Sunspace]
Okay, here’s another question.
There are male Men and female. Male Elves and female. Male Dwarves and female (this is mentioned in the Appendices). Male Hobbits and female. Male Ents, who are pining for their lost females.
Where are the female Orcs?
[/quote]
My wife tells me that she’s always assumed orc breeding is accomplished by (a) kidnapping female Men*, Sindar, and occasionally hobbits, impregnating them through rape, subjecting the male offspring to the same sort of process that Morgoth used to pervert the first generation of Orcs. The female offspring are either eaten or kept as breeding stock, while the original abductees are kept captive till they are no longer fertile, at which point it’s into the soup pot with them.
*I know that’s a really awkward construction, but "female humans’ doesn’t work, as hobbits are human no less than Men.
[QUOTE=squeegee]
We do? I don’t recall that, please help me out. I recall that she was surprised that Gandalf was not with them when the Fellowship showed up in Lorien, so her gaze seems imperfect.
Re: Lady G intervening. Actually, that’s a neat theory. I’d like it to be true, very much. I just don’t see enough hints in the text to hang my hat on.
[/QUOTE]
Once she met the Hobbits, she knew what Frodo carried and what his mission was. She had the Mirror of Galadriel to follow their progress.
You are talking about something that happened before she met the Hobbits.
Jim
[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
What is whispered to Aragorn just before he says, “For Frodo?” More of the ancient tongue or just more evil thoughts?
“Smeagol lied.” cracks me up every time.
Tower about to implode.
(and I can’t help but think that these Eagles–never seen in ME except when needed, considering their size, are a bit of plot device for JRRT).
[/QUOTE]
Deus Ex Aquila. That was always my biggest problem with Tolkein. He creates these wonderful tales with incredible backstories and very complex interactions, yet at the end it comes to, “And the Eagles came and made everything better.” Ugh.
Oh, and some more info on the Maiar. There are many different kinds in Middle Earth. The Balrogs, for example, are Maiar (of fire I believe). They are associated with Melkor. They were not created by him, or even his followers from the beginning, but were seduced by him. There is some question as to why they are stuck in flaming demon form as Maiar generally have the ability to change shape until the power is taken away (as it was for Sauron). Now that I think of that, Gandalf should also have the power to change shape, or to have no shape at all and walk Middle Earth without material form. I guess he never uses that as his purpose is to work with and encourage mortals.
Oh, it also seems that you [eleanorrigby) are thinking of wizard as “spell-casting old guy with a beard”, while in Tolkein it is more of a separate category of being that just happens to look human. Humans can train to be sorcerers (Witch-King of Angmar, Mouth of Sauron), but never wizards.
Lastly, I am upset to learn that Qadgop isn’t feeling well. He must be quite under the weather. Three pages of a Tolkein thread with no word from him? I am worried.
[QUOTE=What Exit?]
It could have been Manwë, but we know pretty well know Galadriel was paying some attention to these Hobbits. We know how she could observe them. I believe she had the power to intercede on their behalf.
There is no indication that Manwë would have chosen this moment to finally intercede and if we assume he did, than we are back to the debate of why didn’t they just fly Frodo in on a Giant Eagle? Why didn’t the Valar just come collect their wayward members and why anything that took place, took place.
If we substitute in Lady Galadriel, nothing else needs to be explained. It is the simplest answer. No divine intervention was required, just the most powerful elf left in Middle-Earth using one of the Three.
[/QUOTE]
Were Galadriel or any other ring-wearer able to peer into Mordor, there would have been no mystery as to the fate of Frodo and Sam. She was able to see a lot of things in her mirror, but it wasn’t CCTV or anything. The Wise were surprised by a lot of things in the war, and had they been able to peek into Mordor willy-nilly, they would have known that Barad-dûr had been rebuilt, that Sauron’s armies had been readied, and that the Nine were abroad once more.
The ring-wearers were afraid of meeting Sauron’s eye in their dreams; not likely they’d want to be looking right at him, either.
Furthermore, the helpful wind is exactly how the Valar tend to work in Middle-Earth. They don’t intervene directly for fear of messing up Illúvatar’s plan, but they act from afar to give hope to the people of Middle-Earth. Witness Varda’s creation of the Sickle of the Valar just to give a sign of hope to the elves in Middle-Earth. That’s how the Valar work.
On the other hand, we never see any sign of any of the Three directly doing something. Elrond’s control over the waters of the ford is not directly ascribed to his use of Vilya. Gandalf has an affinity for fire, but it is not attributed to Narya. And Galadriel is not seen to do anything with Nenya. The Three are much more subtle than that – these aren’t D&Dish magical rings. They mainly allow their wearer to ease the burden of time, and maybe make their wearer more perceptive in some way. Narya apparently can inspire others, perhaps as part of its easing the burden of time. And that’s about all that they do.
[QUOTE=Quartz]
Umm… that the gift to choose is passed to the children of Elrond isn’t in my copy of the Silmarillion (p249, Harper & Collins). And Arwen states that she has to make the choice of Luthien, not Elwing.
[/QUOTE]
By which she meant, she made the choice of following the fate of Men, which is the choice that Lúthien made. Elwing made the choice of following the fate of Elves, which is not the choice that Arwen took.
Oh, I missed my edit deadline, but Ungoliant, the giant evil night spider, was another kind of Maia.
<feels like balls are being tossed waaaay over her head>
WhatExit–in the film, Sauron calls to Aragorn just before A says “For Frodo” at the gates of Minas Morgul. He says, “Aragorn…Elessar”. I say it’s lame for him to say that and that it serves no purpose. Others say it was an attempt by Sauron to sway Aragorn one last time. That’s all.
I’m stuck on the films–I’m on page 100 in Fellowship, so here goes another film question.
I get confused. First we see Arwen whisper re Frodo’s “passing” about what light or whatever is in me, let it go to him. Then, later, when Aragorn has gone off the cliff into the water fighting wargs, we see Arwen come and kiss him (back to life?)
So, my question is: when does she give up her chance to go to the UL? For Frodo or for Aragorn? (I’m sure it’s different in the books. And maybe it’s Brago nuzzling Aragorn and he is hallucinating that it’s Arwen, I dunno).
Yeah, the Eagles. I’ll save JRRT some face, though, with the theory that perhaps they can only be called by a wizard such as Gandalf. I think in TH theysay that they don’t concern themselves with Men etc.
skald–female Men? How about Women. :dubious:
[QUOTE=flight]
Oh, I missed my edit deadline, but Ungoliant, the giant evil night spider, was another kind of Maia.
[/QUOTE]
Is that the one that Frodo fights?
Also, my comprehension of this world is NOT helped by JRRT having at least 3 names for everything. Gah.