LOTR question(s)

Cafe Society
81

[QUOTE=OttoDaFe]
“Aragorn . . . Elessar” — i.e., Sauron’s temptation to Aragorn that he (Aragorn) should join him (Sauron) and achieve his destiny that way. A blatant lie, but worth a shot.
[/QUOTE]

Aragorn–Elessar? That’s it? Good thing this guy didn’t work in advertising!

Isn’t Elessar just another one of Strider’s names? (like Prince Charles has a bunch of names, too).
How about we say that orcs are very long lived? I’m having a problem with this mortality stuff–they can and do die in battle, so they are not immortal (unless by that you mean that they don’t die unless killed in battle-but that makes no sense).

What I understand is that Gandalf et al are not really wizards at all–they take on that title in ME (rather it is given to them by the inhabitants of ME). They are really messengers/servants of a kind from the Valar? Am I close?

82

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
Wait–you’ve gone too fast!

Who is Manwe? If Gandalf was considered the wisest and deepest of the Maia–does that mean the Maia Gandalf was in or overall? Why is Saruman looked up to?
So, there are Maia. I assume these are small groups of demigods or angel like creatures or something. The Valar are the mentors for the Maia? So, each “god” got his or her own Maia?

So, Gandalf and Saruman are peers–but Gandalf defers to Saruman (why?). I also assume that there is a hierarchy of colors going on–brown (Radaghast), grey, then white.

But, if Gandalf has the ring of fire, why he is not in the Maia with the smithing? Seems a likely match up. Did Saruman know Gandalf had this ring?
He would have taken it from him while he held Gandalf prisoner, no?

I’m sorry to not have a copy of the Simarillion for Dummies, but I appreciate all this info.
[/QUOTE]

Ok…at the top of the tree is Iluvatar. Think of him as God. He creates everything.

Think of the Valar as Arch Angels in the service of God. After Iluvatar created Middle Earth some chose to descend into Middle Earth. Once there they are bound to remain till Middle Earth ends. Of the Valar Melkor and Manwe were brothers (in the mind of Iluvatar) and roughly equivalent power wise and quite powerful they were.

Maiar think of as “mere” angels and not Arch Angels in the service of the Arch Angels. Each Valar had Maiar who followed them.

The colors of the wizards sort of indicate rank. Saruman the White being head honcho. Once Saruman is cast down and Gandalf is reborn he becomes Gandalf the White.

And Gandalf had nothing to do with the making of the Red Ring. It was given to him by Cirdan the Shipwright upon arrival in Middle Earth.

I do not think Saruman ever knew Gandalf had the Red Ring. At the outset, even if he did, I doubt he would have tried to take it because at that time they were all good guys although there would have been jealousy which would just push Saruman faster down the road to bad guy.

83

[QUOTE=Middlea]
Nope. Not a lot of details in the books as to what went on when Aragorn challenges Sauron with the Palantir, other than a struggle.
[/QUOTE]
A struggle in which Aragorn wrested control of the palantir from Sauron. This accomplished at least two things: Aragorn was able to use the palantir to see the impending assault of the Corsairs, and the thought was planted in Sauron’s mind that Aragorn had the One Ring (which distracted him from Frodo and Sam).

84

No, I meant that it would seem natural for Gandalf to be included in the Maia that has smithing (where Sarumon was) because of his ring of fire, not that he forged it.

Thank you for showing me the structure–it helps immensely (or least some).

I can’t type ring of fire without thinking of Johnny Cash–I’ve now got a Johnny Cash/Gandalf mash up in my head. Very weird.
ETA: ooh, that would have made the movie so much more complex. I can see why PJ didn’t include the bit about the palantir and the Corsairs, but wow!

85

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
Wait–you’ve gone too fast!

Who is Manwe? If Gandalf was considered the wisest and deepest of the Maia–does that mean the Maia Gandalf was in or overall? Why is Saruman looked up to?
So, there are Maia. I assume these are small groups of demigods or angel like creatures or something. The Valar are the mentors for the Maia? So, each “god” got his or her own Maia?

So, Gandalf and Saruman are peers–but Gandalf defers to Saruman (why?). I also assume that there is a hierarchy of colors going on–brown (Radaghast), grey, then white.

But, if Gandalf has the ring of fire, why he is not in the Maia with the smithing? Seems a likely match up. Did Saruman know Gandalf had this ring?
He would have taken it from him while he held Gandalf prisoner, no?

I’m sorry to not have a copy of the Simarillion for Dummies, but I appreciate all this info.
[/QUOTE]

The Angels were of two main orders. The Valar or lords who numbered 15. Manwe is their chief.

The much more numerous order is the Maia. Gandalf was the wisest of the Maia. Not the wisest of the Angels. He was also humble and strong in forgiveness.

Manwe was the closest in thought to Eru Ilúvatar or God. He was the second strongest of the Valar however, as Melkor was stronger and corrupt and evil. You can think of Melkor as Lucifer if it helps.

If we used D&D terms, the Valar are Greater Gods with retinues of Maia or lesser Gods.

Gandalf was given the Ring of Fire or Narya by an Elf, Círdan, Lord of the Grey Havens in Middle-Earth. He in turn received it from the last Elven High King, Gil-Galad. So the Ring has little to do with the Maia.

I think the simplest reason why Gandalf long deferred to Saruman is that by nature Gandalf is modest and humble. The Colors are not really that simple. There were 5 Istari in all. Saruman the White (Chose in opposition to the Black that was Sauron), Gandalf the Grey (A humble color), Radagast the Brown, a Maia of Yavanna who was the Valar of Nature. Radagast was brown as he was concerned mostly with nature.

The two Blue Wizards do not enter our tales.

Gandalf the Grey returned as Gandalf the White to indicate that he was no longer subjected to the restrictions on his powers he came to Middle-Earth with and symbolically that he had taken up Saruman’s failed role as chief opponent of Sauron.

Only the Bearers of the Rings of Power could tell that other wore the Ring. So Saruman not only could not be sure if Gandalf had it, but he did not strip Gandalf of his possessions, he only imprisoned him at the top of Orthanc.

For an example of the Rings being invisible, if you think back to the books, Frodo and Galadriel were talking in Lorien near the Mirror and Frodo saw the Ring Galadriel had but Samwise saw only a brief bright shining on her hand.

Jim

86

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
Aragorn–Elessar? That’s it? Good thing this guy didn’t work in advertising!

Isn’t Elessar just another one of Strider’s names? (like Prince Charles has a bunch of names, too).
How about we say that orcs are very long lived? I’m having a problem with this mortality stuff–they can and do die in battle, so they are not immortal (unless by that you mean that they don’t die unless killed in battle-but that makes no sense).

What I understand is that Gandalf et al are not really wizards at all–they take on that title in ME (rather it is given to them by the inhabitants of ME). They are really messengers/servants of a kind from the Valar? Am I close?
[/QUOTE]

Elessar is a name given to Aragorn by Galadriel. When he becomes king of Gondor he decides to go by that name (King Elessar).

As for mortality in ME not sure I ever got a full grasp of that either. Things can die to be sure but everything* stays in ME. If you die your soul is still around after a fashion (not like a ghost) and can, presumably be reborn even. Certainly this happens to Gandalf but being Maiar makes him rather different too.

The exception to this is the “Gift of Man”. All races in ME have gifts bestowed upon them but the Gift of Man is perhaps the most unique. Man is the only creature in ME whose soul is not bound to ME. Upon their death their sould goes…elsewhere. Not even the Valar can get out* and they have no idea what happens to Man after their death. Presumably Iluvatar knows but he is not saying.

**Well, maybe Valar can sort of get out of ME. When they finally subdue Melkor they exile him permanently from the world pushing him through the Door of Night into a void. That said Melkor is prophesied to return whereupon he will meet his final destruction.

87

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
Aragorn–Elessar? That’s it? Good thing this guy didn’t work in advertising!

Isn’t Elessar just another one of Strider’s names? (like Prince Charles has a bunch of names, too).

How about we say that orcs are very long lived? I’m having a problem with this mortality stuff–they can and do die in battle, so they are not immortal (unless by that you mean that they don’t die unless killed in battle-but that makes no sense).
[/QUOTE]

Elessar literally translates to Elf Stone. It was his name and also the name that the people of Minas Tirith bestowed on him as he wore a green Elfstone on his brow when he entered the city as a Ranger Chief to heal Faramir and Eowyn and Merry and others.

I think it is safe to assume that Orcs just live in agony and despair until they are lucky enough to die in battle or at least a brawl.

By George, I think she got it. :wink:

You got it exactly. That is a perfect summary.

Jim

88

[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole]
As for mortality in ME not sure I ever got a full grasp of that either. Things can die to be sure but everything* stays in ME. If you die your soul is still around after a fashion (not like a ghost) and can, presumably be reborn even. Certainly this happens to Gandalf but being Maiar makes him rather different too.
[/QUOTE]

Mortality in ME is tricky. Elves & Dwarves do not die and go beyond the Earth. They rather head to the Halls of Mandos where occasionally some return. Glorfindel actually died in the 1st age killing a Balrog in Gondolin. He then not only return from the Halls of Mandos, but actually returned to Middle-Earth, possibly with Gandalf.

Men die, go to another section of the Halls of Mandos and eventually go beyond Earth. Released from its bounds. Many restless spirits of men seem to tarry long in Middle-Earth before heading for the Hall.

Gandalf was a spirit in a corporal body. It was only his body that died. The Valar simply gave him a new body and sent him back.

Sauron at last had gone too far and gave up too much power. He was dissipated into the East and apparently is gone forever. (Or is he?)

It would appear that Saruman may have suffered the same fate.

Jim

89

[QUOTE=What Exit?]
Sauron at last had gone too far and gave up too much power. He was dissipated into the East and apparently is gone forever. (Or is he?)

It would appear that Saruman may have suffered the same fate.

Jim
[/QUOTE]

So they are actually dead.

But Melkor is…where? All I remeber is “void” beyond the Door of Night

90

[QUOTE=What Exit?]
Galadriel’s Ring allowed her to […] break the gathered gloom that Sauron had over the land during the battles at Minas Tirith.
[/quote]
Say, what? I thought that gale from the west was from, you know, the West. The Undying Land Express, as it were.

91

[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole]
So they are actually dead.

But Melkor is…where? All I remeber is “void” beyond the Door of Night
[/QUOTE]

Sauron and Saruman are not dead. They have lost their ability to have bodies, but they may remain restless spirits. Sauron put so much of his power into the Ring that he is permanently crippled by its loss.

Saruman should have returned to Aman to face judgment, but instead he was dispersed. Apparently Mandos made his decision swiftly in the case. He was left powerless and without a body and never to return to Middle-Earth. Probably until the Dagor Dagorath (End of Time).

Melkor was place into the Void through the Door of Night and will not return until the End of Time.

Jim

92

[QUOTE=squeegee]
Say, what? I thought that gale from the west was from, you know, the West. The Undying Land Express, as it were.
[/QUOTE]

I don’t believe you are correct. I believe it was Galadriel that did the feat.

Can you show me where I am wrong in this belief?

Samwise more or less, prayed to Galadriel to do something about the Gloom.

From the end of Chapter 5 The Ride of the Rohirrim (Book 5)

From Chapter 2 The Land of Shadow (Book 6)

The Valar did not directly interfere except by sending agents Like Gandalf and the Eagles. The most powerful figure in Middle-Earth on the side of the West was Galadriel and she held one of the Three Rings.

I believe she sent the wind from the sea. It is possible she worked with Elrond, as she held the Ring of Water and He the Ring of Air.

Jim

93

[QUOTE=What Exit?]
I don’t believe you are correct. I believe it was Galadriel that did the feat.
[/quote]
Well, ok. I thought it fairly clear that the wind resulted from Sauron’s plans going wonky, his power ebbing because things weren’t going his way. And a little help from the big V’s. But I’m not JRRT, so who knows?

Sure, but then what are we to make of both Sauron and Saruman’s ending – turning into a cloud and being blown away by a gust of Wind (both times from the West, IIRC)? These certainly seem like direct messages from heaven in some sense. And if so, how is the gale over the battlefield so different that it must come from Milady?

94

[QUOTE=What Exit?]
The Valar did not directly interfere except by sending agents Like Gandalf and the Eagles.
[/QUOTE]

I never understood why the Valar rarely take a direct role in ME. From how Gandalf acts I see that he almost always opts to let the people around him get things done and merely councils them mostly. However, when faced with something clearly beyond their ken like the Balrog Gandalf steps up to go mano-y-mano with the thing.

So why do the Valar take so long to deal with Melkor and are mostly hands off with the likes of Sauron? Those are their peeps…not ME denizens. Seems to me if the Valar are sort of in ME to oversee things then they should police their own people.

95

[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole]
I never understood why the Valar rarely take a direct role in ME. From how Gandalf acts I see that he almost always opts to let the people around him get things done and merely councils them mostly. However, when faced with something clearly beyond their ken like the Balrog Gandalf steps up to go mano-y-mano with the thing.
[/QUOTE]
I thought the Valar were still gun-shy after giving the Edain shangra-numenor, and as a result getting disrespected by Tar-whatsisname.

96

Aha:

97

Last question for tonight (I’ll check the answer in the morning):

Why would Sauron calling Aragorn “Elessar” be a temptation for Aragorn? It didn’t work.
And of course, now I want to know all about the Blue Wizards and why no red or green or yellow or lavendar ones…

I do remember the elfstone now–I wish they had made his crown with that jewel in the film. I dislike the crown Aragorn wears in the film. I also remember he entered the city secretly (in disguise?). I do wish they had included the crazy pharmacist/healer and Aragorn’s discussion of athelas–very funny stuff.

(and what significance, if any, does the Arkenstone have–bouncing over to The Hobbit for a minute, but this is how my mind works).

And lastly, can anyone render my name (just the Eleanor part) in Elvish? I have always liked the serendipity of my name and elanor–the flower from someplace in ME, and Sam’s first girl’s name, IMS.

Thanks!

98

[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole]

So why do the Valar take so long to deal with Melkor and are mostly hands off with the likes of Sauron? Those are their peeps…not ME denizens. Seems to me if the Valar are sort of in ME to oversee things then they should police their own people.
[/QUOTE]

This doesn’t answer your question directly, but the gods on Mt Olympus didn’t do such a hot job of policing their own, either. It’s a god thing. :slight_smile:
BTW-we are blowing my husband away. He keeps coming in here and saying stuff like, “someone knows the translation of that? Is it in a book or something? Wow.”
hee.

99

I haven’t seen one of the most important “powers” of the Three Rings mentioned, yet – that of keeping at bay the weariness of long years that the elves suffered in Middle-Earth. That is why Lothlorien and Rivendell were two of the last havens of the elves, and is probably the main purpose to which Galadriel and Elrond were putting their Rings to. Once the One Ring was destroyed and the power of the Three faded, the weariness of their long years came upon the elves once more, and so they had no choice but to leave Middle-Earth.

[QUOTE=What Exit?]
I was counting Aule’s workshop.
[/QUOTE]

It’s kind of ambiguous in the Silmarillion where Aulë’s workshop where he made the forefathers of the dwarves was – it says he made them “in the darkness of Middle-Earth” and in secret “in a hall under a mountain in Middle-Earth”, which would imply some place not in Aman. Seems likely he’d’ve gone some place where another Vala or a Maia wouldn’t have just dropped in.

[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole]
I never understood why the Valar rarely take a direct role in ME. From how Gandalf acts I see that he almost always opts to let the people around him get things done and merely councils them mostly. However, when faced with something clearly beyond their ken like the Balrog Gandalf steps up to go mano-y-mano with the thing.

So why do the Valar take so long to deal with Melkor and are mostly hands off with the likes of Sauron? Those are their peeps…not ME denizens. Seems to me if the Valar are sort of in ME to oversee things then they should police their own people.
[/QUOTE]

The Valar did not intervene in Middle-Earth because none of them could remember enough details of the Ainulindalë – which was basically Iluvatar’s plan for the future. They knew good things were in the works, but were afraid that if they intervened at the wrong point they might mess things up. So they didn’t, until there was no other choice.

100

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
Why would Sauron calling Aragorn “Elessar” be a temptation for Aragorn? It didn’t work.

(and what significance, if any, does the Arkenstone have–bouncing over to The Hobbit for a minute, but this is how my mind works).

Thanks!
[/QUOTE]

It was foretold that the King of Gondor would take that name so I suppose Suaron was using that to imply he’d make it happen for Aragorn.

I thought the Arkenstone was buried with Thorin Who is it bouncing to?