LOTR question(s)

Cafe Society
61

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
is Aragorn’s ring one of the Three as well? QUOTE]

Aragorn’s ring is not one of the Three - it’s the Ring of Barahir. This is a ring that one of his very distant ancestors (Barahir, natch) received in earnest after saving the life of the Elven king Finrod Felagund, all the way back in the First Age. Barahir’s son Beren is the mortal man who marries the elf-maiden Luthien; their grandson Elros, brother to Elrond, becomes the first King of Numenor. The ring is passed down first through the descendents of Elros all the way down to Aragorn’s time; his possession of it marks him as a descendent of Beren and Luthien and the legitimate heir of the kingdom of Gondor.

62

[QUOTE=artemis]
Celebrimbor forged the Three without any aid from Sauron, so while the Three can be controlled by the One Ring when the One is under Sauron’s direct control, they aren’t inherently ‘flawed’ the way the other rings of power are.
[/QUOTE]

Is Sauron the only one who can wield the power of the One Ring? For such a powerful ring Frodo gets precious little mileage out of it the few times he slips it on (turns him invisible is about all).

Gandalf mentions he dare not take the ring as he would try to use its power for good but in the end it wouldn’t work out that way and would corrupt him (I’m paraphrasing of course). This implies Gandalf thinks he could use it.

Everyone else who wore the ring pretty much comes to a messy end (does Gollum ever actually wear the ring or just swoon over it?). For such a powerful item I’d expect more.

63

The One Ring gave power according to the capabilities of the wearer, while it seduced them into evil, and twisted them towards ending up as slaves or servants of Sauron. Thus Gollum got long life and invisibility (nothing was said about sanity). Bilbo was in the process of getting something similar, but this was interrupted by his giving it up under Gandalf’s influence.

Golllum lived in the dark, so maybe he never actually needed it that much.

If someone already powerful received it, they would become evil and powerful, like the Chief Nazgul, who was a powerful king and sorcerer when he was alive. Gandalf was even more powerful that that; he was a type of being almost at the level of Sauron (a Maiar or demigod?), so he would become a Dark Lord or someone as bad. And he quite realised it.

Presumably Sauron himself, if he were to regain the Ring, would remain evil, but reclaim the rest of his power that he had placed into the ring.

64

Gollum wore the Ring in The Hobbit to hunt within the tunnels. The goblins who lived there came to avoid his tunnel due to this unknown, unseen “thing”. In later years, Gollum kept it secret, kept it safe on his island.
Bilbo used the Ring to great effect–it allowed him to steal from Smaug the dragon for one. It also allowed him to escape and then save the dwarves.

Frodo uses it to good effect as well–but with the Malice growing stronger, using thr Ring became more dangerous. Frodo was not only invisible, he could see more clearly–not sure if he has visions, per se, but he could more clearly see what lay ahead. He also could identify another Ringbearer, although why this somehow didn’t apply to Gandalf’s ring escapes me.

Is it certain that the Witch King would turn over the Ring to Saroun? Why not keep it for himself?

65

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
[Frodo] also could identify another Ringbearer, although why this somehow didn’t apply to Gandalf’s ring escapes me.
[/quote]
My impression is that the effects of the Ring made it easier to pay attention to other Great Rings while they were being worn; otherwise the viewer simply took no notice of the Ring on someone else’s finger, or thought it was something else, like Sam thinking the Ring on Galadriel’s finger was a star when they were at the Mirror of Galadriel.

Perhaps Sauron was as more powerful than the Witch King as the Witch King was more powerful than Frodo. The Witch King started out as a Man, and Sauron was, I think, at least a demigod, like Gandalf or even more powerful. So the Nazgul would have been as ultimately helpless before Sauron as Frodo was before them.

66

[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole]
Why didn’t the Three Rings of Power subvert the Elves?

The Nine Rings of Power of course thoroughly corrupted the men using them and turned them into Ring Wraiths. While dwarves were not susceptible in that way to the Seven Rings those still undid the dwarves pretty well.

So why not the Three Rings? I assume they were still subject to the One Ring’s power. Is it just that the Elves were resistant to them?
[/QUOTE]

Sauron did not forge the Elven Rings, but by the Elven Ring Smiths of Eregion under their chief Celebrimbor who was the actual the Grandson of Feanor who had forged the Silmarils and Palantirs. The Elves were able to use them in the Third Age as Sauron was not in possesion of the One Ring. They had put them aside when they detected Sauron’s ill intent in the second age. Sauron never really knew where they were.

[QUOTE=Sunspace]
Where are the female Orcs?
[/QUOTE]

The females are not seen or mentioned, but they exist. Orcs were believed to be a major corruption of enslaved Elves by Melkor back in the beginning of the 1st age.

[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole]
The wizards were sent to Middle Earth by the Valar about 1,000 years into the Third Age to help fight Sauron. Of those Sarumon was considered the leader of the lot of them but I think even then it was deemed Gandalf was somehow superior as he is given the Red Ring (not sure).
[/QUOTE]

It was Círdan that gave Gandalf Narya, the ring of fire or Red Ring.

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
Good question, Whack–I have no idea. Plus, we only see one of the three rings (Galadriel’s wearing it)–or is Aragorn’s ring one of the Three as well? And if so, why does he get to wear it–it’s an Elvish ring. Wait-Elrond probably had one, did Mr. Galadriel (can’t remember his name-not well done in the films)
[/QUOTE]

The 3 Elven Rings at the time of the War belonged to Elrond, Galadriel and Gandalf. BTW: Celeborn was Galadriel’s Husband.

Jim

67

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
Is he shown Arwen in the books? (afterall, she wasn’t dying in the books). So many questions…

There is something wrong with the endings to these films. Kind of anti-climatic. I still love them, though.

Overall, I prefer the book the Hobbit, though…guess I’ll never grow up!
[/QUOTE]

Nope. Not a lot of details in the books as to what went on when Aragorn challenges Sauron with the Palantir, other than a struggle.

68

[QUOTE=artemis]
Sauron (in his disguise as Annatar) played a direct role in the forging of the Nine and the Seven, and so directly tainted them. Celebrimbor forged the Three without any aid from Sauron, so while the Three can be controlled by the One Ring when the One is under Sauron’s direct control, they aren’t inherently ‘flawed’ the way the other rings of power are.
[/QUOTE]

And, when Sauron put on his ring, the owners of the 3 rings immediately knew what he was up to, took them off, and hid them. That is why no one, save a few, knew who had the 3 rings.

69

[QUOTE=What Exit?]

The 3 Elven Rings at the time of the War belonged to Elrond, Galadriel and Gandalf. BTW: Celeborn was Galadriel’s Husband.

Jim
[/QUOTE]

So, if Gandalf has this extra special de-coder ring, why is he lesser than Saruman to start off with? You don’t see Saruman with some poncy ring. And what of Rhagad the Brown or whatever–no appearance in LOTR, eh?

And I prefer Mr. Galadriel–it has a certain, well, er, ring to it. :stuck_out_tongue: :cool:
So, Aragorn was heir to one kind of ring-that establishes his lineage. Gandalf, Mr and Mrs Galadriel all get Elvish rings that are somehow effected by Sauoron’s ring, but not forged by him. The Dwarves and Men are essentially f**ked unto the Lord with their rings. What a lot of jewelry there is lying about in MiddleEarth!

But, Aragorn’s ring has no power(?), Gandalf’s does (but is not used?), Galadriel’s has unmentioned powers; Frodo sees G’s ring, but not Gandalf’s for no good reason(although I can think of no reason for him to see them). It’s just that we keep tripping over the blessed things–they must mean something. Does Arwen get a ring when they marry? Did Rosie?

I want answers! :slight_smile:

70

[QUOTE=What Exit?]
The females are not seen or mentioned, but they exist. Orcs were believed to be a major corruption of enslaved Elves by Melkor back in the beginning of the 1st age.
[/QUOTE]

Well before the First Age: in the book they are held to be those elves ensnared by Melkor at the first awakening of the elves.

And skipping Gollum in the Two Towers means you miss Serkis’s standout performance. It really should have won an Oscar.

71

I’ve seen it. I’ve seen the Making of It. I am more interested in the relationships (I’m a chick). I give Serkis full marks–his best lines are “Save me?” with just the right amount of self knowledge and angst, and “Smeagol lied.” Love that line.
Anyway, I skip over the Ents and Saruman and Gollum a lot. I don’t in the books, but it reads differently. That’s just me. Plus, I didn’t have 16 free hours (or whatever it ends up being-some ungodly amount of time).

72

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
So, if Gandalf has this extra special de-coder ring, why is he lesser than Saruman to start off with? You don’t see Saruman with some poncy ring. And what of Rhagad the Brown or whatever–no appearance in LOTR, eh?

And I prefer Mr. Galadriel–it has a certain, well, er, ring to it. :stuck_out_tongue: :cool:

So, Aragorn was heir to one kind of ring-that establishes his lineage. Gandalf, Mr and Mrs Galadriel all get Elvish rings that are somehow effected by Sauoron’s ring, but not forged by him. The Dwarves and Men are essentially f**ked unto the Lord with their rings. What a lot of jewelry there, lying about in MiddleEarth!

But, Aragorn’s ring has no power(?), Gandalf’s does (but is not used?), Galadriel’s has unmentioned powers; Frodo sees G’s ring, but not Gandalf’s for no good reason(although I can think of no reason for him to see them). It’s just that we keep tripping over the blessed things–they must mean something. Does Arwen get a ring when they marry? Did Rosie?

I want answers! :slight_smile:
[/QUOTE]

Gandalf was Olórin the Wise in the West (Undying lands). He was considered the wisest and deepest of the Maia. He originally tried to beg out of going to Middle-Earth as he feared he would fail. He was Manwë’s choice the chief of the Valar and this led to some jealousy from the beginning with Saruman.

Saruman did have a ring by the way. He crafted it himself in imitation of the One Ring. He studied much into the lore of “ring making.” He was a senior Maia of Aulë. Aulë was the Valar or smithing and craft and the creator of the dwarves. Unfortunately both Sauron and Saruman numbered among his Maia.

The White Council started around 2463 TA. Saruman was its leader as he was the most knowledgeable of Sauron’s works. Galadriel preferred Gandalf as she may have remembered him from Aman.

Radagast never directly appeared, only his actions being related by Gandalf or by Gandalf relating Saruman talking of his actions.

Mr. Galadriel had no ring. Gandalf, Galadriel and Elrond had the Three Rings.

Aragorn’s ring has nothing to do with the Rings of Power and is actually older. It was the Ring of Barahir, a gift from the Elven King Finrod Felagund to Barahir, the Father of Beren from whom Arwen and Aragorn both descended. (A very long story).

Gandalf’s Ring had power. Did you ever notice that he was especially skilled at fire and fire works. Part of that was the Ring of Fire. Additionally, the Ring of Fire helped Gandalf rekindle the flame of Theoden’s Heart, throwing off the despair and poisons of Wormtounge.

Galadriel’s Ring allowed her to obscure Lothlorien from outsiders, especially the questing Eye of Sauron. It allowed her to do strange things to time or at least times affect on mortals. It allowed her to break the gathered gloom that Sauron had over the land during the battles at Minas Tirith.

Elrond used his ring to keep Rivendell a hidden Valley protected by the Rivers surrounding it.

There was no mention of exchanges of rings for marriages.

I think I answered that batch. Hopefully I did.

I forgot to mention earlier that Orc and Goblin can be used interchangeably. Same creatures.

Jim

73

[QUOTE=What Exit?]
I forgot to mention earlier that Orc and Goblin can be used interchangeably. Same creatures.
[/QUOTE]
Yes. I always thought that “goblin” was the children’s term, used in The Hobbit, which at least started out as a children’s book.

74

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
So, if Gandalf has this extra special de-coder ring, why is he lesser than Saruman to start off with? You don’t see Saruman with some poncy ring. And what of Rhagad the Brown or whatever–no appearance in LOTR, eh?

And I prefer Mr. Galadriel–it has a certain, well, er, ring to it. :stuck_out_tongue: :cool:
So, Aragorn was heir to one kind of ring-that establishes his lineage. Gandalf, Mr and Mrs Galadriel all get Elvish rings that are somehow effected by Sauoron’s ring, but not forged by him. The Dwarves and Men are essentially f**ked unto the Lord with their rings. What a lot of jewelry there is lying about in MiddleEarth!

But, Aragorn’s ring has no power(?), Gandalf’s does (but is not used?), Galadriel’s has unmentioned powers; Frodo sees G’s ring, but not Gandalf’s for no good reason(although I can think of no reason for him to see them). It’s just that we keep tripping over the blessed things–they must mean something. Does Arwen get a ring when they marry? Did Rosie?

I want answers! :slight_smile:
[/QUOTE]

We don’t see much of the other wizards at all besides Sarumon and Gandalf even in the books. Not sure why.

It is hinted that Cirdan gave Gandalf the Red Ring because he figured out they were Maiar and somehow “felt” that Gandalf was the guy and not Sarumon who should get it (I do not think Sarumon knew Gandalf was given the ring). Sarumon was presumably more powerful than the rest. Not all Maiar are created equal. They all deferred to Sarumon as their “leader” (for lack of a better word) at the outset.

Men of course are thoroughly corrupted by the rings but I seem to recall Sauron was not pleased the rings did not have the same effect on the dwarves. The dwarves were just built differently although their rings still had undesired effects and proved their undoing just the same although none turned into Ringwraiths.

The Three Rings were the most powerful of all the rest (save the One Ring). And they did indeed have powers.

The Ring of Fire (Gandalf’s ring) had the power to inspire hope in others.

The Ring of Water (Galadriel’s ring) had the power of protection. She used it to conceal Lothlorien.

The Ring of Air (Elrond’s ring) had the power to…I don’t know actually. It is supposedly the most powerful of the lot and I think it was what Elrond used to summon the water in the river to wash away the Ringwraiths (in the movie it was Arwen who did that). The horses made of water were a touch added by Gandalf.

Magic in Middle Earth rarely seems to be of the “lightning bolts from your finger tips” sort and usually was more subtle. So while the rings did not seem overtly powerful they were nonetheless powerful items.

75

So was Sauron a Maia? What about Melkor?

76

[QUOTE=Sunspace]
So was Sauron a Maia? What about Melkor?
[/QUOTE]

Sauron was a Maia of Aulë. Melkor was originally the strongest of the Valar.

More on Orcs, this time, from Wiki as I did not feeling searching the texts.

The authors have done a good job in this article.

77

[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole]
Magic in Middle Earth rarely seems to be of the “lightning bolts from your finger tips” sort and usually was more subtle. So while the rings did not seem overtly powerful they were nonetheless powerful items.
[/QUOTE]

This is an excellent summary. Really should be etched in stone.

78

Wait–you’ve gone too fast!

[QUOTE=whatexit?]
Saruman did have a ring by the way. He crafted it himself in imitation of the One Ring. He studied much into the lore of “ring making.” He was a senior Maia of Aulë. Aulë was the Valar or smithing and craft and the creator of the dwarves. Unfortunately both Sauron and Saruman numbered among his Maia.
[/QUOTE]

Who is Manwe? If Gandalf was considered the wisest and deepest of the Maia–does that mean the Maia Gandalf was in or overall? Why is Saruman looked up to?
So, there are Maia. I assume these are small groups of demigods or angel like creatures or something. The Valar are the mentors for the Maia? So, each “god” got his or her own Maia?

So, Gandalf and Saruman are peers–but Gandalf defers to Saruman (why?). I also assume that there is a hierarchy of colors going on–brown (Radaghast), grey, then white.

But, if Gandalf has the ring of fire, why he is not in the Maia with the smithing? Seems a likely match up. Did Saruman know Gandalf had this ring? Ah, I see the answer upon posting. Ta.
He would have taken it from him while he held Gandalf prisoner, no?

I’m sorry to not have a copy of the Silmarillion for Dummies, but I appreciate all this info.

79

[QUOTE=Sunspace]
So was Sauron a Maia? What about Melkor?
[/QUOTE]

Melkor was Valar and perhaps the most powerful of them (Manwe may have been his equal). While all the other Valar wanted to nurture Middle Earth Melkor wanted it all for himself. He destroyed the Two Trees of Valinor and stole the Silmarils (among many other naughty things).

Sauron was Maiar albeit one of the most powerful of them and originally served Aule the Smith (which is what allows him to forge the One Ring eventually). Melkor corrupted Sauron and Sauron become second in command as it were. After Melkor was dealt with (eventually) Sauron became the main bad guy in Middle Earth.

80

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
What is whispered to Aragorn just before he says, “For Frodo?” More of the ancient tongue or just more evil thoughts?
“Smeagol lied.” cracks me up every time.

Tower about to implode.

(and I can’t help but think that these Eagles–never seen in ME except when needed, considering their size, are a bit of plot device for JRRT).
[/QUOTE]
“Aragorn . . . Elessar” — i.e., Sauron’s temptation to Aragorn that he (Aragorn) should join him (Sauron) and achieve his destiny that way. A blatant lie, but worth a shot.