LOTR question(s)

[eleanorigby]

I liken Bombadil to Beorn. They are both independent, mysterious creatures, who commune with nature differently than Man/Elf or Dwarf/ Hobbit do. They both change shape–I don’t think it says so explicitly for Bombadil, but I think he must have the ability to do so; Beorn takes on the shape of a bear. Of the two, Tom is less dangerous–or perhaps just less intimidating. They are the spirit of man when he is in tune with nature…My two cents.

Theoden has just given Wormtongue his choice. I like how in the book, it is the people who choose Eowyn because of their love and respect for her. I like the character of Eowyn–so tragic, but so courageous and meaty. I like that she ends up with Faramir/

I’m waiting for T or Ters to show up. Back to reading.

[What_Exit]

@Cemetery Savior

OK, since there seems to be no shortage of nitpicky Silmarillion knowledge…

It always bugged me that there appeared to be two Glorfindels (one in the Silmarillion, and one at the Ford [Rivendell, ringwraiths, lotsa water, etc.]).

I seem to remember the Silmarillion one being pretty darn powerful, as (I think) he killed a Balrog to get out of the Hidden City (name escapes me…) in Beleriand. I don’t remember if he was killed in the act.

Then there’s the one at the Ford…if it’s the same guy, I’d have expected him to whomp all over the ringwraiths.

It seems sloppy for Tolkien to use the same name twice…I don’t think he does it elsewhere.

And mark me down as one tally on the “Bombadil is an avatar of Illuvatar” sheet.

-Cem

Tolkien addressed this in one of his letters. He believes that Glorfindel was the same. Keep in mind that the Glorfindel of Rivendell was also an Elf of the Light. He is the only elf known of to return from House of Mandos and return to Middle Earth.

I think Tolkien conjectured, he may have come over with Gandalf on the same boat. He was there at the Ford as one of the only Elves left that could stand against all 9. He was among the mightiest of Elven Lords left in Middle Earth.

I don’t believe he would have expected to die facing the Nazguls at the Fords, in fact the Nazguls feared to face him. Their primary weapon of fear was of no value against Glorfindel. Elrond thought about asking him to escort Frodo to Mordor, but he decided to send Merry & Pippin instead at Gandalf’s urging. I suspect that Gandalf suspected that though Glorfindel was mighty, he would have stood out like a beacon as they approached Mordor.

Jim

[What_Exit]

@eleanorigby

I liken Bombadil to Beorn. They are both independent, mysterious creatures, who commune with nature differently than Man/Elf or Dwarf/ Hobbit do. They both change shape–I don’t think it says so explicitly for Bombadil, but I think he must have the ability to do so; Beorn takes on the shape of a bear. Of the two, Tom is less dangerous–or perhaps just less intimidating. They are the spirit of man when he is in tune with nature…My two cents.

I like this. Did you ever read the The Chronicles of Prydain? Beorn reminds me of Medwyn or vice-versa.

Jim

[Skald_the_Rhymer]

@eleanorigby

I liken Bombadil to Beorn. They are both independent, mysterious creatures, who commune with nature differently than Man/Elf or Dwarf/ Hobbit do. They both change shape–I don’t think it says so explicitly for Bombadil, but I think he must have the ability to do so; Beorn takes on the shape of a bear. Of the two, Tom is less dangerous–or perhaps just less intimidating. They are the spirit of man when he is in tune with nature…My two cents.

I’d guess that Tom is potentially far, far more dangerous than Beorn. But he’s also much harder to piss off, so he seems more, ah, Poohish. Don’t annoy him, or stay outside the Old Forest, and you’re fine. But if you’re going to anger him WITHIN the Old Forest, you’d better be a Balrog, Gandalf the White, or Sauron.

[eleanorigby]

I have read that, long ago. (really, the only way I recognized it was the pig-keeper part!). Wasn’t also humorous? I vaguely remember that.

Re the Balrog. No way could Aragorn have withstood that. In the film (I know, I know), Gandalf says to him, “swords and weapons are of no use here” or something like that. I think only one of the Maiar could have taken on a Balrog and survived. Wings or no wings, that thing in the movie frightened me. Cool whip, though.

Am in the midst of Helm’s Deep and I’m confused. Please don’t make me read it again (I’m not big into military stuff). I find it ironic that Gandalf/film counsels AGAINST HD, while Gandalf/book insists they go there!

I am sure it was PJ and that annoying co-writer (not his wife)–I can just see them, conferring: PJ–we’ve got to get them to Helm’s Deep; it’s the crux of TT. Annoying writer–I know! We’ll have a bit of drama between Theoden and Gandalf! PJ–but, that doesn’t happen. AW–so what, you need to get them to HD, this’ll do. PJ–sold. I have 4 million feet of footage to look at before morning…
I love the caverns and I was disappointed that they weren’t shown in the film. All I saw were stagalmites and stallactites. <sigh>

The trees would have been a cool CG thing, too. So, essentially, the whole forest moved eastward? Herded by the Ents?

And that brings up Entwives. Come on, they gotta be dead and gone, no? IMO, Treebeard is in denial. If he can move around and can’t find them, surely they can move around and find the Ents? And for no one else to have seen or heard of them, except in long ago tales? They’re long gone firewood.

Oh, also confused about the battle of HD. There are women and kids who come out of the caves. But I didn’t read any evacuation (?). I read that basically the troops of Saruman were chasing the Rohirrin troops towards HD, with Eowyn back in the “silent hall.” If it’s just the film, ok–but where did those women and kids come from?

[Skald_the_Rhymer]

@eleanorigby

I have read that, long ago. (really, the only way I recognized it was the pig-keeper part!). Wasn’t also humorous? I vaguely remember that.

Re the Balrog. No way could Aragorn have withstood that. In the film (I know, I know), Gandalf says to him, “swords and weapons are of no use here” or something like that. I think only one of the Maiar could have taken on a Balrog and survived. Wings or no wings, that thing in the movie frightened me. Cool whip, though.

Am in the midst of Helm’s Deep and I’m confused. Please don’t make me read it again (I’m not big into military stuff). I find it ironic that Gandalf/film counsels AGAINST HD, while Gandalf/book insists they go there!

Mrs. Rhymer is chiming in. She insists that this was very subtle manipulation on Gandalf’s part (in the movie, that is); that is, that Gandalf gives Theoden King a bit of obviously bad advice for the simple purpose of getting him to do something–a psychological kick in the ass, as it were.

[quote]

[Tapiotar]

@flight

He is the Buddha in a Christian world.

More of a taoist playfulness than the seriousness of Shakyamuni Buddha.

[What_Exit]

eleanorigby’s post is in green.

I have read that, long ago. (really, the only way I recognized it was the pig-keeper part!). Wasn’t also humorous? I vaguely remember that. Yes, it was a retelling of old Welsh tales in a humorous style for young adults.

Re the Balrog. No way could Aragorn have withstood that. In the film (I know, I know), Gandalf says to him, “swords and weapons are of no use here” or something like that. I think only one of the Maiar could have taken on a Balrog and survived. Wings or no wings, that thing in the movie frightened me. Cool whip, though. Aragorn could not stand against him. No hope. I agree, I doubt even Glorfindel or Galadriel would have survived the Balrog.

Am in the midst of Helm’s Deep and I’m confused. Please don’t make me read it again (I’m not big into military stuff). I find it ironic that Gandalf/film counsels AGAINST HD, while Gandalf/book insists they go there! Gandalf in the book strongly suggested Hornburg for Theoden. Theoden left Eowyn to lead the woman, children and elderly to the safety of Dunharrow, and he rode out to Helm’s Deep.

I love the caverns and I was disappointed that they weren’t shown in the film. All I saw were stagalmites and stallactites. <sigh>Me too, I was very sad to loose Aglarond.

The trees would have been a cool CG thing, too. So, essentially, the whole forest moved eastward? Herded by the Ents? Effectively, but, well actually it was just the Huorns, not the entire forest.

And that brings up Entwives. Come on, they gotta be dead and gone, no? IMO, Treebeard is in denial. If he can move around and can’t find them, surely they can move around and find the Ents? And for no one else to have seen or heard of them, except in long ago tales? They’re long gone firewood. Maybe, maybe not. I choose to believe there may have been a few left at the time.

Oh, also confused about the battle of HD. There are women and kids who come out of the caves. But I didn’t read any evacuation (?). I read that basically the troops of Saruman were chasing the Rohirrin troops towards HD, with Eowyn back in the “silent hall.” If it’s just the film, ok–but where did those women and kids come from? The bulk of the woman and children were safe at Dunharrow, but the locals did take refuge in the back of the Glittering Caves IRC.

Jim

[eleanorigby]

[QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer]
Mrs. Rhymer is chiming in. She insists that this was very subtle manipulation on Gandalf’s part (in the movie, that is); that is, that Gandalf gives Theoden King a bit of obviously bad advice for the simple purpose of getting him to do something–a psychological kick in the ass, as it were.

Ooh, that is intriguing. I like the way she thinks. I think she might be right–Gandalf does the very UNsubtle grasping of Theoden’s throne (that does not sound G-rated, folks), and Theo notes it. He may well have manipulated Theo into HD. Hmmmm…nice thought.

And WhatExit–the Dwimeredon is in the early beginning of TT. I can’t find it now–but it comes after dwimmercraft (which I also cannot find now). Either Eomer or another Rohirrin says it.
Off to “parley” with Saruman.

ETA: Christ, Jim! Dont’ do that–I went back to reread and thought my eyes were going bad or I had finally run mad. I’m very tired, and I kept seeing green type! So, Dunharrow is a separate place than either the main town (Meduseld etc) or HD?

[What_Exit]

@eleanorigby

And WhatExit–the Dwimeredon is in the early beginning of TT. I can’t find it now–but it comes after dwimmercraft (which I also cannot find now). Either Eomer or another Rohirrin says it.

ETA: Christ, Jim! Dont’ do that–I went back to reread and thought my eyes were going bad or I had finally run mad. I’m very tired, and I kept seeing green type! So, Dunharrow is a separate place than either the main town (Meduseld etc) or HD?

Grey answered that one above:

@Grey

Dwimordene → Lorien

I have to admit, I forgot that one.

Sorry about the Green, I couldn’t answer that many questions w/o parsing and the quote parsing drives me crazy, it looks ugly to me and worse, it looks like we were in GD.

Jim

[Skald_the_Rhymer]

@What Exit?

[Re the Balrog. No way could Aragorn have withstood that. In the film (I know, I know), Gandalf says to him, “swords and weapons are of no use here” or something like that. I think only one of the Maiar could have taken on a Balrog and survived. Wings or no wings, that thing in the movie frightened me. Cool whip, though. Aragorn could not stand against him. No hope. I agree, I doubt even Glorfindel or Galadriel would have survived the Balrog.

Who said anything about surviving? Even Gandalf the Grey didn’t survive; he just held the Balrog off long enough for Aragorn to get the others away. In the movie he clearly doesn’t EXPECT to survive, and Aragorn can see it in his wife; and in the book Aragorn has had a premonition that Gandalf going to Moria equals his death.

[What_Exit]

@Skald the Rhymer

Who said anything about surviving? Even Gandalf the Grey didn’t survive; he just held the Balrog off long enough for Aragorn to get the others away. In the movie he clearly doesn’t EXPECT to survive, and Aragorn can see it in his wife; and in the book Aragorn has had a premonition that Gandalf going to Moria equals his death.

The Green part is what eleanorigby wrote. I was answering her.

Otherwise you are correct.

[DiggitCamara]

@eleanorigby

(snip)
And that brings up Entwives. Come on, they gotta be dead and gone, no? IMO, Treebeard is in denial. If he can move around and can’t find them, surely they can move around and find the Ents? And for no one else to have seen or heard of them, except in long ago tales? They’re long gone firewood.

(snip)

I’ve got a hunch that both the Old Forest and Tom Bombadil might have something to do with the EntWives. IIRC Fangorn (the lead Ent, I forget his other name) kind of perks up in the books when the hobbits tell him about the Old Forest and about the Shire (something like “hey, the EntWives would have dug that!”) …dunno if anything came of it but there seems to be the kernel of a story in that…

[Lightray]

Oh, man. How I do regret giving any suggestion of a Balrog vs. Nazgul cage match on this board… you’d think some kind of instinct would’ve kicked in to stop me or something.

@What Exit?

Tolkien addressed this in one of his letters. He believes that Glorfindel was the same. Keep in mind that the Glorfindel of Rivendell was also an Elf of the Light. He is the only elf known of to return from House of Mandos and return to Middle Earth.

I think Tolkien conjectured, he may have come over with Gandalf on the same boat. He was there at the Ford as one of the only Elves left that could stand against all 9. He was among the mightiest of Elven Lords left in Middle Earth.

Which letter is that in? I’ve been flipping through them, and found one where some lady named Rhona Beare – who would probably have made a good Doper – was asking about the inconsistency of Glorfindel using a bit and bridle for his horse (!), and one where some lady apparently wanted to name her bull or cat or something “Glorfindel” or “Galadriel” perhaps.

… the Master was very polite in that latter one, but one imagines him being rather aghast in a certain, polite British way.

I know I’d read that somewhere, but no way I’m digging out all of Christopher’s endless collections to find it.

[What_Exit]

@Lightray

Which letter is that in? I’ve been flipping through them, and found one where some lady named Rhona Beare – who would probably have made a good Doper – was asking about the inconsistency of Glorfindel using a bit and bridle for his horse (!), and one where some lady apparently wanted to name her bull or cat or something “Glorfindel” or “Galadriel” perhaps.

… the Master was very polite in that latter one, but one imagines him being rather aghast in a certain, polite British way.

I know I’d read that somewhere, but no way I’m digging out all of Christopher’s endless collections to find it.

Looking for the Glorfindel Letter, I stumbled upon letter 345 where Tolkien explicitly says “Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights.”

I can’t locate the letter. I only know the 5 main books nearly by heart, I leave it to **QtM ** to find and quote all the later books.

Jim

[Lightray]

Well, sure. If I had a zymolosely polydactile tongue I’d have no trouble keeping track of this stuff, either! Alas, no.

[Eolbo]

@eleanorigby

And that brings up Entwives. Come on, they gotta be dead and gone, no? IMO, Treebeard is in denial. If he can move around and can’t find them, surely they can move around and find the Ents? And for no one else to have seen or heard of them, except in long ago tales? They’re long gone firewood.

Literally firewood. In one of his letters Tolkien wrote:

What happened to them is not resolved in this book. … I think that
in fact the Entwives had disappeared for good, being destroyed with
their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance (Second Age 3429-3441)
when Sauron pursued a scorched earth policy and burned their land
against the advance of the Allies down the Anduin. They survived
only in the ‘agriculture’ transmitted to Men (and Hobbits). Some,
of course, may have fled east, or even have become enslaved: tyrants
even in such tales must have an economic and agricultural background
to their soldiers and metal-workers. If any survived so, they would
indeed be far estranged from the Ents, and any rapprochement would
be difficult – unless experience of industrialized and militarized
agriculture had made them a little more anarchic. I hope so. I
don’t know.

[What_Exit]

Some more fun quotes: This concerns Glorfindel and several others.

In Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.

In wiki I found this note from The Peoples of Middle-earth:

Tolkien wrote that Glorfindel is sent back to Middle-earth by the Valar during the Second Age circa 1600, when Barad-dûr was completed and Sauron forged the One Ring, and while Númenor was still friendly with the Elves under Tar-Minastir. He is sent as a kind of predecessor to the Istari (Wizards), or in a different version, together with the Blue Wizards. At one point he was even considered as a possibility for the identity of one of them, though this was immediately rejected since the Eldar were not initially conceived as possibilities for the Wizards, and he had come to the conclusion that they were only Maiar.

Conceivably the problem of Glorfindel’s resurrection could easily have been resolved by changing the name of Glorfindel of Gondolin to another name, but Tolkien was unwilling to do this, as he now associated the name with the character.

[Whack-a-Mole]

@Skald the Rhymer

Who said anything about surviving? Even Gandalf the Grey didn’t survive; he just held the Balrog off long enough for Aragorn to get the others away. In the movie he clearly doesn’t EXPECT to survive, and Aragorn can see it in his wife; and in the book Aragorn has had a premonition that Gandalf going to Moria equals his death.

IIRC absolutely no one survives a fight with a Balrog. At least not th three fights that are explicitly described. Although whoever may have defeated a Balrog they all did so at the cost of their own life as well.

Although presumably there were more than those three Balrog (as noted earlier Tolkein said up to seven) so perhaps the Valar offed a few in the War of Wrath without themselves getting killed but then of course they are Valar so one would hope so.

[DesertDog]

@eleanorigby

Re the Balrog. No way could Aragorn have withstood that. In the film (I know, I know), Gandalf says to him, “swords and weapons are of no use here” or something like that. I think only one of the Maiar could have taken on a Balrog and survived. Wings or no wings, that thing in the movie frightened me. Cool whip, though.

I thought the balrog was the coolest effect in all three movies. I mean, the way the smoke would puff and swirl as he moved, and the the skin would crack, momentarily exposing the fire within. And then, you get a close up of his maw as he bellows, right down his throat. I’ve peered into a furnace at full blast and that’s exactly what it looked like.

I definitely would have soiled my armor if I was on that bridge.