Yep, that’s the map. Thanks, Mlees.
Some of the areas even have names.
-Cem
I go to work and what happens? :eek: Obviously, y’all need watching.
<sigh> I’ve started on book IV. I hope to half skim it. They’re lost in the rocks and have not yet met up with Gollum.
I love the bit about Figwit, but I can see how it would make some people mad. He’s really AnyElf–the fact that he has lines and is seen more than once just made people want to give him a background. He now becomes a footnote in the canon, which is not a horrible thing.
I have a question concerning the maps (I refuse to delve into the role playing–you guys are on you own). I don’t see the prominent E (without the middle bar) that “surrounds” Mordor. Am I just not seeing it?
I’d like a nice color map of ME, too. Just for the interesting topography of it. I like maps as art.
I plan on only reading and folding laundry tonight, so I should get well into ROTK. Stay with me! I’m almost done…
– Twisting toe of foot into the ground and looking at the ground –
Sorry, Ms. Rigby, we’ll be good in your thread.
WhatExit–how you doin’? 
Sam just “remembered” that he has rope. <long, heavy sigh> (as if he–a gardener and handy man, would forget he had rope. Deep breath. Must read the Frodo parts. Must)
<turns the page>
It’s there. Divide the map into quarters, and it’s at the lower-right of the uppermost and leftmost quarter. The green and overly detailed coastal area in that quarter is the “Middle-Earth” seen in LotR. Note how very, very small it is, in comparison to the rest of Middle-Earth.
Kind of makes the job of the Blue Wizards seem a little more than otherwise, eh? Since there were 3 Istari assigned to that little bit, and only 2 for all the rest. (and the Blue Wizards had to deal with Sauron, too, from the other side – with no mountains to hold him in).
And, speaking of RPGs, the biggest crime committed by Tolkien toward RPGs isn’t the endless repetition of pseudo-Euro-Medieval + elves + dwarves, but the fact that RPGers think that SQUARE MOUNTAIN RANGES are at all acceptable. shudder
Perhaps the most of the rest of ME was just empty? Perhaps JRRT thought he’d get around to the other tales of the other lands, but found the popularity of LOTR too time consuming?
IMS, Lewis didn’t write about all of Narnia, nor did Baum about Oz.
I would think that the fanfic could take the characters out of the Simarillion and make up stuff for the blank bits.
As for the Istari (I’m sorry, I keep wanting to say it’s an antique gaming system that I used in the early 80s)–maybe there WERE more than just those 2 blue ones. Pssssst: none of this really happened or existed. Tolkien was free to change his mind at any point (ala Rowling)–he could have added more of them or created more or added other, different but on par creatures. Just a thought…
Actually Tolkien never planned to do much more with third or fourth age ME. He was interested mainly in the First Age. The publisher of the Hobbit wanted more tales of Hobbits and then after the delay but incredible success of LotR, he seriously considered a sequel in the 4th age. So, Tolkien was concerned overwhelming with the West of Middle Earth.
Jim
Well, but it was extremely light and compact rope, and therefore easily overlooked among all the other crap he was toting. Sure, he was really excited about it when he first got it, and probably spent the next few days just waiting for a chance to whip it out and span some roaring chasm or whatever. But after a week or so without any opportunities for roping, it’s understandable that it wouldn’t be right at the top of his mind.
Sam was a stout fellow, but he had some strange priorities. When negotiating rocky terrain, his first concern was no doubt making sure that he didn’t dent any of his damn pans. There’s the real reason he wasn’t corrupted by the Ring; he was already a slave to his weird obsession with those precious pans.
I am laughing so hard I am crying. I think I may be able to read these bits now. I will look for the pan obsession and post all I find…
Nah, there’s a throwaway line in ROTK about Sauron getting food and slaves from regions he controls south and east of the “known world” and Strider mentions having travelled and fought in lands far to the south. So they are definitely populated.
And I think this is the important point. These books are good because the author implies an entire world and is only writingabout a tiny portion. Makes it all seem much more “epic”.
Whatever for? Alannon already fought the Balrog (more or less) back in Sword of Shannara, at which point I damn near threw the book on the fire. :smack: :rolleyes:
And according to Faramir, Gandalf said that he does not travel in the East, making the duties of the blue wizards to be over that portion more likely. (and perhaps those regions don’t need more than 2 blue wizards. Maybe blue wizards are Gandalf to the 10th power).
As a general rule, I agree with you. I think Tolkien does err, though. If this “battle for ME” is so damned epic, you’d think he’d at least mention the other lands and what happens in them. It’s not enough to say stuff like you mention above. For someone who was so meticulous re detail in language and background, he needed to put a bit more in.
Bear with me here, for I’m about to state something obvious. I knew that Rowling had borrowed from Lewis, Nesbit and Tolkien for her HP stuff. But this is getting ridiculous! I just read Faramir, referring to “him whom we do not name” and I swear the vision of Voldemort floated before my eyes.
Isn’t Faramir giving a lot of info re Boromir away to Frodo in this interrogation? He’s talking all about Boromir’s character and how he was impatient with the steward status etc. Given that it’s Frodo who’s the prisoner, I find that odd.
I think the Oliphaunts could have been cut out. But the rabbit stew was ok. Gollum sometimes speaks almost normal “common tongue” and sometimes pure Gollum. Is this the Sybil in him? Gollum speaks gollum, and Smeagol speaks almost normal? Never noticed that before either.
And I don’t know if any of you have read Gone With the Wind, but Faramir is starting to remind me a bit of Ashley Wilkes. The romantic intellectual who loves Art, forced to be a soldier. (thank god Faramir doesn’t just pine for the love of a strong woman–he’s got more backbone than that).
No, IIRC the Blue and Deep-Blue Wizards were meant to be under the tutelage of Saruman and Gandalf, although Gandalf (as Olorin) didn’t want the responsibility. It’s mentioned somewhere in Unfinished Tales or The Book Of Lost Tales or somewhere.
Well, if you’ve reached the end of this section by now, you may know why. Ask again if it’s not clear.
Yes, for a time Smeagol, inspired by Frodo’s kindness, almost reverts to being merely an ancient hobbit, and as the narrator remarks, actually talks directly to Frodo or Sam instead of to his “precious” self.
The oliphants were important for a couple of reasons. First, it establishes the character of the hobbits, particularly Sam – they’d come all that way, seen all those amazing things, and that is the thing he thinks his Gaffer won’t believe. Second, it is a point showing that not everything is bad – here’s the army of Mordor, marching, bigger than the West can handle… but look at those amazing creatures! It allows the mood to be broken, and many readers think that section of LotR is one of the most dire to get through because it’s so oppressive in mood.
Now, I don’t think that Tolkien intended the oliphaunts to be anything more than really big elephants – not so much like the 10-story tall kaiju that wombled on-screen in the RotK movie.
Come to think of it, those critters were the size of Minis Tirith, no? I never really thought about their proportions. And then Legolas takes out one with 3 arrows into the brain. They look like they’d need a bazooka or two, not 3 measly arrows.
Off to read–I’ve been surfing online too long.
Yeah, but they were *elvish *arrows, with special mumak-piercing tips.
I have mixed feelings about the size of the oliphaunts in the film. They certainly made for more impressive visuals…but it’s yet another gratuitous change. (And notice that Grond had to be pulled by an entirely different beast in the film, probably because the oliphaunts were now too large for the job.)
Indeed, one wonders why Grond was needed at all in the movie. They just could have had the oliphaunts step on Minith Tirith and be done with it.
Great thread. I liked seeing the giant oliphaunts, although I agree they’re bigger than JRRT described. I also like Peter Jackson’s use of trolls: harnessed to open the Black Gates of Mordor and to pull Grond up to the gates of Minas Tirith, and the one attacking Aragorn in the final battle (a stand-in for Sauron himself, who came out to personally fight Aragorn in an early draft of the ROTK script).
I’ll cast another vote for George R.R. Martin’s A Song of Ice and Fire series, too. Every Tolkien fan I know who’s read them has really liked them (although they are quite different from LOTR - a lot more like the War of the Roses, albeit with magic, dragons and other realms).
Of course, in the book troll swung Grond, and a troll attacked Beregond (not included in the movie) in the final battle - and fell on Pippin, who later had to be pulled out by Gimli.
rereads
Holy crap, things could have been worse. :smack:
More than an early script draft. They filmed it! Check out some of the special features on the ROTK expanded edition to see what Annatar looks like.