Hi all - Just a note that for me the Frodo stuff is the best part. Another reason for LOTR’s popularity I think. You can choose to look at the same story with your focus on any one of a number of different characters.
Funny, I thought Tolkein got it from HP Lovecraft and Hastur the Unspeakable.
IIRC when challenged on this, he pointed out that the landscape was caused by the battles between the Valar and Melkor, and not a natural phenomenon. Middle Earth doesn’t have continental drift.
Um…wow (and not in a good way).
I can’t think of much that would have ruined the book (and thereby the script for the movie) more than Sauron making an appearance. When I first read the books, I was in continual dread of Sauron comin’ on out to beat down the Fellowship. The fact that Tolkien exposes us to progrssively more-powerful “Good” forces throughout the book (nice Hobbits, Strider, Rivendell Elves/Elrond, Lothlorien elves/Galadriel, two versions of Gandalf, armies of size, etc.), and ALL of them fear Sauron makes for a nice escalation of dread. Critical to the book, I say!
It would have been anticlimatic to see an embodied Sauron.
-Cem
I also vaguely recall an excuse that the map included in LotR was never intended to be the map – Tolkien sent something along, thinking the publisher would smarten it up a bit, and hey! suddenly there’s square mountain ranges.
Also not an excuse for RPGers, who everyone knows redraw their maps ad infinitum.
That would be very funny, indeed. Since Lovecraft was not the creator of Hastur the Unspeakable, but swiped him from somebody else. Hmm… wikipedia says Ambrose Bierce, by way of Robert Chambers. And that Lovecraft mentioned Hastur only once in his works – most of the references were Derleth’s.
Cemetary--I’d never thought of it that way. That makes good sense.
I don’t understand this passage: From ROTK
It comes just after Pippin draws Gandalf’s attention to the beacons being lit.
“But Shadowfax paused in his stride, slowing to a walk, and then he lifted up his head and neighed. And out of the darkness the answering neigh of other horses came; and presently the thudding of hoofs were heard and three riders swept up and passed like flying ghosts in the moon and vanished into the West.”
Who are they? What are they? Gandalf does not refer to them and Pippin just goes back to sleep. 
I am at the mustering of Rohan now. I don’t mind a bit the changes PJ made to the setting up of the Paths of the Dead (although it would have been cool to see Hallbarad and other Rangers), or the interplay between Eowyn and Aragorn. If not absolutely correct in essential, PJ captured the spirit of Eowyn so well, and the conflict of Aragorn re her. That is one thing the films got very right, IMO.
I actually didn’t mind the whole Frode/Sam thing–and the bigass spider was a very good bit. (this may say more about me–and not in a good way–but reread the passage of Sam fighting her. Except for the words bitter and pain, it could be a description of sexual penentration. I might be a bit too into this…)
I think what I get impatient with re Frodo et al is coming up. Every step is agony to him–but he has to walk about 100 miles. This is tedious–either he’s dead on his feet or he’s not, but I digress.
Hope to finish the ROTK by tomorrow–I do have things to do. 
Here is what you missed:
They were errand-riders.
Jim
Additionally, I always thought it was the errand-rider who was fetching the Red Arrow to Theoden.
I think the power of names is a very old idea and has been in stories from before they were written down.
Who the hell are errand riders? What kind of critter are they? What red arrow? Is that coming up? I haven’t read that bit yet, but don’t remember it from past readings…
I’m still mustering the Rohan, sorry but #2 son needed a haircut and dinner needed making…
In the books they were soldiers of Gondor. Their function was to deliver messages the Steward wanted delivered to outlying commands and nearby allies.
The Red Arrow was an arrow, with the tip painted red. The Steward sending that arrow to the King of Rohan meant that Gondor was asking Rohan to send as many troops as they could muster as fast as they could muster them.
You meet Hirgon (that’s the name of the errand-rider) in The Muster of Rohan (Book V chapter 3).
<sheepishly> The red arrow and Hirgon were on the next page.
<continues to read>
cough cough cough Eowyn cough (all right, he doesn’t pine, to be fair)
Something I sort of dig on: the… assumption? Notion? Indication? The pleasant way Tolkien fans – and the man himself – have of discussing uncertainties. He didn’t know if it was the resurrected Glorfindel or how he would have come back? He wasn’t sure what happened to men? We don’t know when X happened to Y or Z? It’s very easy to forget that these are works of myth and fantasy.
I especially love the Rangers of Eriador, though. I was tasked to write about them once and the act of considering them brought me to the realization that they are an embodiment of the ultimate in noblesse oblige. Long ago, the West had great kingdoms and was a great deal more ‘civilized’ than it is in the end of the Third Age. The Dunedain warred, though, and it was through their folly and arrogance (correct me if I’m wrong, o ye who know better) that their fine kingdoms were torn down and only ruins remain. The lines of kings and nobles are scattered and few, but they are not reduced in heart.
But more to the point: they are still kings in their souls. They are not revered by their subjects and in fact live shabbier lives, sleeping under trees and walking long miles to patrol their lands. They have no armies or great fortresses. They only have themselves and their few allies to protect against clansmen and bandits to the south and goblins and trolls to the east, and they have still many folk to protect. The people of the towns and villages that once made up a mighty kingdom sneer at and distrust their kings, not knowing them for who they are.
In the end it is not the crowns that make them kings: it is the obligation they have to protect the simple folk of Bree and Staddle and the Shire and all the rest. Without them, the simple folk would be overrun and these gentle lands would know true hardship. With their hard work, the folk of those lands never know those dangers even exist, and it is a sign of their success that nobody even notices them.
I just thought that was intensely beautiful and sad when I first realized it.
Furthermore, Hirgon was slain by Sauron’s forces after delivering his message. Since he was heading eastward, when Denethor heard the news he assumed Hirgon had been unable to reach Thèoden, so (he thought) the Rohirrim weren’t coming after all – another nail in his coffin of despair.
This was a beautiful post, I could nitpick one or two items, but I love the view.
I know about Eowyn, that was my point, I have a lot of respect and affection for Faramir, too. Heis only like Ashley Wilkes in that one way–and thank goodness!
I finished the book last night. It occurred to me that (given the times in which Tolkien came of age), Frodo’s giving Sam BagEnd marked a shift in thinking and a great honor for Sam. We don’t have the same social construct here in America, but to leave your property to your servant–that’s huge. It shows that Sam was worthy–he’d shown his quality, of the very highest. I also find it odd (sorry, but’s my name-I can’t help but be interested in it) that Elanor means sun-star. Eleanor is a derivative of Helen, which means “light”. So, JRRT wasn’t so far off (or there is at least an extremely tenous connection between ME and our world or something).
Scouring of the Shire:
The name Sharkey just bugs me. It just does. It sounds like a gangster out of Guys and Dolls. So it probably came from an Orc word. It still bugs me. Purely linguistically or something–I don’t like the syllables. They sound too modern and English-American.
Since when did Merry and Pippin become Captains? I don’t recall their ranks being formally bestowed.
Pelennor Fields: who is the Pince of Dol Anth-whatever (I don’t have my book with me) and who is the Imralis guy? He is royal etc–we never get a story on him? He just shows up? Too late in the game for that to happen–Tolkien should have told us a bit about him. (He may well have–it was late last night).
Nobody picked up on my interp re sexual imagery with Sam and the Spider? I dont’ mean Sam had sex with the spider–just reread that passage and take it out of context. No? yes?
Thirst in the land of Mordor. This I had to skim. And the scene where Sam bades farewell to his pans was humorous, thanks to upthread. Kamikaze pans rather than be soiled by orc touch. Perhaps Sam could start a hobbit school of gourmet cookery…
Why does Elrond get the most powerful ring and not Gandalf? Probably been covered before, but still.
If anyone is looking for Christ imagery in LOTR, they only need to look to Frodo’s last speech to Sam. It was quite moving and about self-sacrifice etc.
LittlePlasticNinja–you are quite correct in essentials. I have no idea how correct you are in details. Don’t care. The Rangers were the embodiment of noblesse oblige. I would like to read some stories about them.
Haven’t touched the appendices as of yet. I am quite busy today in RL. Comments?
Gray & Bold = eleanorigby
**Since when did Merry and Pippin become Captains? I don’t recall their ranks being formally bestowed. **
They were the tallest and best armed and armored Hobbits in the Shire for the Scouring. They became Captains by the simple fact they lead the scouring of the Shire and both were the senior scions of the two most important families in the Shire.
Pelennor Fields: who is the Pince of Dol Anth-whatever (I don’t have my book with me) and who is the Imralis guy? He is royal etc–we never get a story on him? He just shows up? Too late in the game for that to happen–Tolkien should have told us a bit about him. (He may well have–it was late last night).
The Prince of Dol Amroth was the most important noble in Gondor after the Stewards. They are descended through the long ages from a union of a Numenoeran and a silvan elf. Imrahil led the largest army to Minas Tirith. His sister Finduilas was wife of Denethor and therefore the mother of Boromir and Faramir. Legolas, I think commented about the elven blood upon seeing Prince Imrahil. The Prince ruled the large marine princedom of Dol Amroth.
Addtional note: His daughter married Eomer, giving Gondor and Rohan two very strong ties. (As Faramir had already married Eowyn).
Why does Elrond get the most powerful ring and not Gandalf? Probably been covered before, but still.
Elrond was one of the original Ring Holders. Given Vilya directly by Gil-Galad. Gandalf’s ring was given him much later by Cirdan to whom Gil-Galad had given it.
As a descendant of Luthien and Eärendil’s son he was one of the most important Noldorians. He had nearly as much right to the title of Noldorian High King as Gil-Galad himself as Elrond was the eldest descendant of Fingolfin but Gil-Galad was descended from the younger brother Finarfin. How Kingship moved to this line, is another long story.
If anyone is looking for Christ imagery in LOTR, they only need to look to Frodo’s last speech to Sam. It was quite moving and about self-sacrifice etc.
Not to mention Gandalf’s whole resurrection like bit.
Jim
Not to mention, that the Three were handed out well before Gandalf ever came on the scene… and Narya was given to Círdan. When Gandalf showed up, Narya was the only ring that Círdan had to give over to him.
Also, Vilya was originally Gil-galad’s, and was only later given to Elrond for keeping (apparently before Gil-galad’s death). Frankly, for all Elrond’s many years, one imagines that the remaining Noldor saw him as somewhat of an untried boy – even though Galadriel was the only one of the Noldor who remembered Valinor.
Not true, Glorfindel and quite probably others were that old. We don’t know what other Elves of the Light resided in Rivendell or in Ered Luin. Tolkien never addresses this, so we only know for sure about two.
Jim
Ok, started Appendice A (the prologue to the appendices makes no sense to me–but I’m not a big one for exact dates). See the bit about Elros and Elrond. Stopped reading d/t RL stuff. Is Aragorn descended from Elros, then? Just speculating here.
I have enjoyed reading LOTR this way so much. All of you have been helpful, encouraging and fun. Thank you all so much.
If I ever get another cat, I’m naming it Ioleth. She cracks me up. (deft touch by using her to describe the coronation, btw).