Following the thread up to #161 - I agree that’s why sinjin is voting the way she is because of the belief that Mahaloth is likely scum, but the other possibility is that your response to #161 in #164 seems to shrink the accusation down to missing one explanation, when sinjin is trying to say there’s a pattern of missing multiple explanations…
Does that make sinjin’s vote more fair? Or is it still just not a scum tell?
NETA: Incidentally, “fairness” is not a great criteria for a mafia vote, but I hope everyone will forgive my loose use of a verbal caboose.
Yes, those are my townie leans so far. Most people haven’t really posted enough for me to feel like I have a read.
I haven’t a clue if I ‘usually’ mention thinking of voting before doing so. I suppose it’s because I want them to take my questions seriously!
wevets, Pizza being **Pizza ** is just that, it doesn’t tell me anything about his alignment at the moment, he is so hard to read but I don’t think his waffling on is worthy of a vote. The point I was trying to make is that sinjin made me look at Pizza more closely and even then I found nothing that was worth a vote. What I did find too was that I looked at sinjin more closely as well. It was just something I hadn’t really thought about before. I usually play on gut feels but the feeling has to come from somewhere and I found that interesting.
I have found that sinjin does play aggresively so I am not surprised that she has votes out there already.
I have a feeling that Idle has posted his actual PM because he hates being scum. I know this is a feeble reason to believe him and he hasn’t been scum for a long time but I can imagine him as scum posting his real PM too just to get it over and done with. This is just a feeling and I could be totally wrong and it might not be a bad thing to keep an eye on him.
I disagree with Mahaloth about all of us revealing our clues because as I said before that mine might be useful later on but at the moment scum could probably gain an advantage from it. I don’t think skimming is a scum tell, I think scum read a lot more carefully than Town do because they don’t want to slip up by not knowing things that Town do know, that has happened before.
I am not a big fan of multi voting I find the board gets cluttered up with votes and it’s more difficult to get a grip on voting patterns later on (for me personally). It’s also a way for scum to just chuck out a vote and not be totally accountable for said votes. You know the excuses “well it’s a multi vote game and s/he looked suspicious at the time”
After all that I still don’t know who I want to vote for.
You must have never played a game with me before. I claim every game on Day one. And so far–in my 9-10 times of doing it–I’ve been Town.
Yep, see the posts I made right above your post here.
catching up. initial thoughts:
**Idle **claiming is something i expect. if he doesn’t, that would actually set off alarm bells.
each player should exercise their own judgment whether to share or not. i think it’s pretty naive at best to call for a mass claim this early. it likely won’t happen. it makes me take notice. i’m wary of players trying to be helpful when they really aren’t.
that said, i don’t think my clue hurts anyone.
[QUOTE=storyteller0910]
CLUE: All ties are resolved via random.org.
[/QUOTE]
D1 lynches are usually crapshoots. all this talk about random or joke votes are tiresome. in other boards they don’t even make it a joke. they just vote someone.
multivotes are part of this game. deal with it. the advantage here is you can vote everyone you’re suspicious of.
(Lightfoot may not know the game has begun. She is active on The Ungulate’s Board. Perhaps someone should poke her there.)
I’ll guess we have some power that reveals player’s names, and that the Clue that Scum have cover identities is false, only Moriarty and perhaps Holmes having covers.
[QUOTE=wevets]
Can you tell me about the meta-clue idea you mentioned where you don’t think the Mod is using clues in such a way that scum could use them to out power roles or advance their wincon somehow? Why wouldn’t the Mod have done something like that?
[/QUOTE]
It just seems to me that it would be inelegant and anti-Game to have clues like “The player with a clue about Monica’s dress is Head of the FBI.” I suppose there might be a single Scum clue like that to add spice, but it would be dastardly to have a hidden mechanism to make clue reveals generally bad. (Even vanilla’s revealing would be bad with such a mechanism, helping Scum eliminate.)
Clues might have internal evidence about their holder. My own clue might lead to an inference about a power I do or do not have.
BTW, the main reason I didn’t blurt my own clue is that it might lead to levels of second-guessing (“wifom”) with Scum having the advantage since they know whether or not the clue is true. However there is a game-theoretic argument for discounting that: Each player can ignore my clue, pretending I never revealed it. In that case revealing it did no harm! Of course, players could consider the clue if, on balance, they judge it worth any risk. Therefore, I’ll just reveal now:
Assuming the clue is true, we do have a female Scum, … but so far only one revealed female. This makes my vote easy:
Vote: Idle Thoughts
Just (half-)kidding. 
[del]Unvote: Idle Thoughts[/del]
I don’t think I understand your question? I’m going to try to answer it anyway. 
In math terms, if player Sinjin accuses me of possibility A, why do you expect me to dispute possibility A AND possibility B in my response?
Regarding Mahaloth: Maybe it’s because this is only my second big Mafia game, but I can’t get on board with “skimming is a scum tell.” Not in a game that can churn out scores of posts every day.
So I’m a little bit leery of players who maintain that they always play a certain way early on in Mafia games. **Idle Thoughts **claims every game on Day 1, **pizza **is “being pizza” when he votes early and indiscriminately.
The problem is that this employing this kind of metastrategy provides a great smokescreen in the event that you do end up being scum. If pizza is scum this game, then he never has to justify his early voting record beyond “well, I’m pizza and pizza votes early and indiscriminately.”
Likewise, Idle Thoughts doesn’t have to justify his early reveal beyond “I’m Idle Thoughts and I always reveal early and anyway I’m almost always town.”
Either way, “pizza being pizza” is enough justification to not vote for him: he’s acting consistently within his own metastrategy and I haven’t seen anything else from him that pings scummy. I 100% believe that he’s totally cool with attracting a Day 1 lynch when he’s town, but the way I feel about that isn’t germane to the game.
On the other hand, I have some concerns about Idle Thoughts.
He revealed but didn’t copy/paste the role. That seems an odd choice to make if you’re going for a full reveal, especially if you’re vanilla. I’d like to hear the thought process that led him to spend extra time quoting his role in pieces rather than just doing a copy/paste.
Idle’s role (what he shared, anyway) tracks, structurally and grammatically, with mine, but Dizzymrslizzy’s clue says that scum all have false roles to use.
2a) Obligatory remark reiterating my understanding that clues might be false.
2b) Whether Dizzy’s clue is false or not, there’s still the oddity of the not-quite-complete vanilla reveal.
Idle makes a point of ‘predicting’ that scum will vote for him, basically setting up a claim that “anyone who votes for me is scum,” which to me pings scummy as a Day 1 claim.
I’m not scum, but my scumdar is pinging. So until/unless some of my doubts are assuaged I’m going to
Vote Idle Thoughts
Why do you suspect this?
It feels a lot like you’re just reiterating what others have said.
That’s why we need to bring our A game, every game. We can solve this game, like town can solve any game, and repeating how hard it is sounds like defeatism. It just started, so I’m curious why you’re feeling so dismal about the game?
I’m gonna chuck out an early vote for this post in aggregate.
Vote Silver Jan
Wait wait wait, I see what you’re saying now. I acknowledge that Mahaloth has missed a fair few people pointing out the pertinent rule… But I don’t subscribe to the “skimming is a scum tell,” theory, and him missing MORE than just my explanation swings him likelier town for me, as far as Day 1 goes. I noticed he had missed a few points before (when I asked him how much of the discussion he’s read), but I don’t see the scumminess.
I truly believe that scum are more careful than that, even if that’s perilously close to a “scum wouldn’t do that” maxim. My most egregious reading errors, including not knowing my own team name, have all been lovingly committed by a town Astral.
First off, to Rysto:
Voting for both of the main contenders has as much weight as voting for neither of the main contenders, something which we see in single-vote games, too. In the endgame, this can be bad, and players should look out for it and call people on it, but in the early or mid game, you can and should vote for whom you find most suspect, regardless of whom others are voting for. This may mean voting for neither or both of the two front-runners.
To clarify my vote on Mahaloth, since it’s related to sinjin’s vote for him: I’m not actually putting much weight on Storyteller’s warning against mass-claiming. Several people have already chimed in to say that they think their clue would best be left unrevealed for one reason or another; likely clues like those (whatever they are) are what Storyteller was warning about. But Mahaloth said that he saw no harm in revealing his own clue, and urged others to reveal theirs, but still didn’t do it. That’s a suspicious lack of commitment, and Scum generally try to avoid too much commitment.
Which I think also addresses wevets’ vote on me.
On another note: septimus’ clue is consistent with his earlier statement that it was both something the Scum would already know, and that it introduces layers of WiFoM. I can see why he was reluctant to claim earlier.
And on a purely bookkeeping note, Dizzymrslizzie, I don’t think your vote in 169 counts. We don’t have the [vote] tags on this board; you need to do the color yourself.
I didn’t urge others, but merely stated I was tempted to urge others. Small but relevant point. 
Posting as I catch up.
@ wevets:
You can take this with a grain of salt, as it is a player’s depiction of his own scum/town play differences, but I have a long history to back me up.
Here is my key scum tell.
When I am scum, I have a team of players that I am immensely dedicated to helping bring home the victory. Now, while it’s true that I am dedicated to the town side when I am town, and put out massive effort, the issue is, I don’t know for sure when I am town who my teammates are. As such, there’s a little bit less direct teamwork- I am sort of out there on my own with a personal challenge to myself to aggressively pursue scums and to try to guess before it is too late who is NOT a threat to our side.
But the comraderie, that is lacking a little bit. I honestly don’t care that much if I get mislynched because if and when I do it is because people have read me improperly or they’re scum. So I don’t consider that to be my fault. I dare people to read me correctly and I kind of snicker when they don’t. It’s no big thing but it does impact how I play town roles.
If I am in a situation where I CAN avoid drawing the ire of players, and it’s also unlikely that I am the top voted candidate that day, my duty as a scum player is to avoid poking the thumb in the eye of too many players at once.
You see, some folks will vote you if they’re annoyed with you, regardless of whether they think you’re scum or not. Those are additional votes which are extremely easy to avoid. As scum, I do everything I can to avoid those votes, and that is why my survivability is so high when I am scum.
While I can’t predict a sudden wagon out of nowhere for no reason, that rarely happens to me. Most experienced players can predict that saying X or Y will get them hanged, and avoid saying such things. Y’know, if they care what happens to their scum buddies.
When I’m scum I’m not just playing for my own amusement, I have teammates that I would feel like total crap if I let down. Ask anyone who has ever scummed with me, and they’ll tell you, the last thing I’d ever do is play terribly and die quickly. My goal is to avoid that and cause as much damage as possible.
Since I am playing offensively rather than defensively as town, and I don’t care as much if I get mislynched due to my own personal views about whose fault it is if I do, you will see me be less diplomatic, less cautious, more aggressive, and much more willing to argue vociferously even if half the town disagrees with me.
That’s the tell. I’ve even explained the tell before, but it still hasn’t been used effectively against me, so I’m repeating it.
Take that for whatever it is worth. I told folks my tells on my first scum game at Idle and they were true and I did get lynched. So I’m not shy about telling folks my tells.
Correct. One of the things I do when I am scum is tell my honest opinion on stuff as much as possible to “sound” like the typical me.
The problem is, I do that too much. Then it’s me acting like me. Can people tell the difference, or is it not that big a deal, and would they just lynch me anyway because it’s easier than thinking about it? 
I notice people seem to fear being fooled by me than most other players.
Y’know, it’s still a loss if some other player fools/defeats you. Just sayin.
Yay!
Also, hmm… not a lot of activity since I left. 
Hmm just noticed day ends on Wednesday every week. So we have a lot of round left.
Has everyone even checked in yet?
Does septimus’ vote for Idle Thoughts and the subsequent cross out indicate he intended to unvote? If so, that’s not the proper unvote indicator, you have to do bold and red, not cross out.
I’m assuming that he intends the vote to stand, and that that’s just his way of acknowledging that it’s a somewhat silly vote.
IIRC, that was one of the reasons I voted for you in the Arkham game, that you were playing conservatively. Don’t know if that counts as being used “effectively”, though, given that you did survive a good long time in that game.
And as an aside, I’ve never been able to understand how someone can know their own Scum tells in the first place. If I knew what my own Scum tells were, I wouldn’t do them, and they’d stop being tells. But that’s a discussion that’s better had between games, when we can trust each other.
I’ve seen me play and I know what decisions I make which are different, and how that is publicly visible.
Here’s the difference:
My scum “tells” actually assist me in surviving the game and winning victoriously.
Changing them would actually cost me wins.
I’ve thought of ways to incorporate that style into my town play, but… as a townie, my goals are different, and it IS better to be aggressive than to wait it out and not make your views clear. Nothing frightens me more as scum than massive voting pressure on me and my teammates, especially early, while town still has a decisive advantage. So I want to put scums into that same corner when I’m townie. I can’t do that by being diplomatic or cautious.
So, in spite of the fact that I could survive longer as townie by mimicking my scum play, it’s not even to my advantage to do so. Different goals, different sides.
As townie you’re much more expendable than if you’re a scumbag (in most situations. I know when to sacrifice as scum) and it’s more advantageous to be aggressive and try for one-for-one trades.
If you go for one-for-one trades as scum you’ll run out of teammates fast.
If mafia were a chess game, a scum team is like 4 rooks on the board versus a crapton of pawns and a few knights.
Scum can win, but never with one-for-one trades.
That is why town and scum strategy will always be different. I need to survive and get townies dead, as much as possible, as scum. As town, I am intentionally playing for one-for-one trades. Both strategies are optimal for their side and should, in theory, always look different.
If there’s one thing I haven’t figured out is how to make them look the same. All I’ve managed is “similar enough”, but if you look carefully, the motivation should be clear.
The truth of what I am saying should ring true even if you fully believed I was scum right now, which I am not.
Obviously from my perspective, less so for you guys. But we’ll see.
Especially for vanilla townies, your goal should be to get one scumbag to be convinced that they will never survive the game with you alive.
Force them to murder you, while your finger points at them in cold, silent, dead accusation.
Then, the town powers survive longer, and proven innocent people have a vote record against the correct targets.
Or, manage to lynch one. That’s like a pawn-for-rook trade in chess. That’s gangbusters. It’s really the best you can hope for in a game where you have zero advantages other than your one vote.
Find one scum and make their life miserable. Even if they have to waste time killing you, you’ve done your job.