Mafia: Baker Street [Game in progress]

The Game Room
161

You did it twice in this game!!

**Storyteller **spelled out the dangers in the clarification of the rules POST #55 on page two of this long, long thread of 4 actual pages so far.

You first posted about everyone revealing their clues in POST #90 on the same page! Most of the discussion on that page before and after your post was about the unintended consequences and dangers of revealing clues.

Astral Rejection in POST #96 quoted the relevant portion of Story’s warning about clues.

At the top of page 3 in POST #103 you again suggested that every one reveal their clues, admitting it might be a reckless thing to do and completely ignoring all of the previous discussion.

In POST #108 Captain Klutz referenced Story’s post (not with a link or quote).

In POST #120 by **DaphneBlack **calls you out specifically and tells you that the mod has said that revealing all the clues may backfire on us.

And yet in POST #158, quoted above, you are still totally ignorant of Storyteller’s warning.

I am even more suspicious of you now! You ignored the rules clarification post, it seems you didn’t read any of the discussion before your first post, nor that which took place between your first and second posts and apparently still had not read any of it when you POSTed #158. You appear to be woefully ignorant of what is going on in this thread. Scummy, scummy, scum.

162

Sinjin, are you planning on voting for Mahaloth, or just leaving it at “scummy, scummy, scummy”?

163

He did vote me. Right away.

164

Ahh, body-text vote. I glossed over it and just saw his vote for pizza at the bottom.

I don’t really see “missing a rule in the body of another explanation” as a huge scum tell, so I’m a little critical of his vote for you, Mahaloth. I also doubt you’d have ignored my direct question to you if you were scum.

165

Did you also miss that he ignored/failed to read the many other posts by people, not just you, talking about the mod warning. And that he apparently did not read the mod’s rule clarification post. Pretty defensive of **Mahaloth **there AR.

166

I think you’re all throwing smudges out a little hot and heavy here, sinjin.

Re: Mahaloth - I find it unlikely that a scum Mahaloth would gloss over the very first game page. When I played scum (all twice), I was hyper-critical of the text in front of me. I don’t believe “Mahaloth being scum” explains his actions.

Re: Me defending Mahaloth - In every game I have ever played, I have defended players against what I consider bad arguments. Sometimes this gets me lynched, and sometimes it doesn’t, but that doesn’t really matter… town benefits most from me commenting on everything.

I get that you’re implying a scum Astral is jumping in to save a scum Mahaloth against nebulous day 1 semi-votes, but this, too, I find incredibly unlikely. Especially since I’m one of them! :slight_smile:

167

Mahaloth, given the information you have now been pointed to, does that actually change your mind?

168

The old “scum would never do that” defense. Play a few more games and you will know that scum ***will ***do that.

So if you don’t believe scummy Mahaloth would do that, what is the explanation for his missing all those posts talking about mod post #55. Even after it was brought to his immediate attention by you? What exactly is bad about my “bad argument?” My vote against Mahaloth was anything but a “nebulous day 1 semi-vote”. What the heck is a semi-vote anyway.

What I find questionable about your defense of Maha is your seeming credulousness. I didn’t find it enough to vote for you but if it will make you feel better I can go that way.

169

I agree with Astral. Sinjin seems a bit aggressive at the moment. I think you are being a tad opportunistic for Mahaloth skimming at the beginning fo D1

[vote]Sinjin[/vote]

170

I don’t even think your vote on me is all that bad for a Day 1 vote.

171

I’m really not getting you here. Where’s your argument for:

a) Why Mahaloth missing story’s rule post and the subsequent discussion about it something that shows scum motivation?
b) Equally important but often forgotten, why this is not something that shows town motivation?

Both of these elements are critical to building a case, but you haven’t come close to discussing either. The thrust of your argument appears to be “skimming is a scum tell”.

172

I kind of see your point, but there’s an incident in scum pond mafia that sticks out in my mind. In that game, there was a critical lynch vote between a scum (me) and a townie. Each player was allocated two votes, and in that vote one player voted for both leading contenders. The net effect was that it was as if he hadn’t voted at all. Nobody in the game caught it, but the spectators sure did.

Now as it happens, the player who did it was town and just made a poor move, but I could definitely see scum pulling something similar intentionally. So I’m kind of suspicious of multi-voting.

173

A) He was encouraging an anti-town action: Mass clue claim. He did it twice, the second time after someone had quoted story’s post.
B) He completely ignored all discussion of why his idea was not in town’s best interest.
C) He actually did skim thru the better part of what so far is day 1. To the point that he still didn’t know what Story posted on page 2 of this thread after it had been directly pointed out to him.
D) Scum do frequently skim, especially about stuff that doesn’t directly effect scum, ie, talk about clues. All the scummies know their clues are true. Town does not have this reassurance. Town is trying to learn all they can Day 1. Scum not so much.

174

Pizza - If you think I’m waffling on my clue or the clues in general, you need to reread. I am against a mass clue reveal.

To elaborate: I think that a mass clue claim is going to be a net disadvantage to the town. Per the mod, clue reveals “may not always benefit the side of the player given the clue” - as there are more town players, they are more likely to not benefit when posting the clue than scum. Whatever odds you set on a clue helping the other side more than it helps the poster, more bad info is going to come out that misleads the town
(and that discounts the fact that the scum have the ability to coordinate and potentially catch and edit flaws in their clues, dropping the chance that a scum clue aids the town).

As I said earlier, my clue is only relevant if there is a name claim. It does not make sense to share until the person named is revealed, and I do not plan to do so.

175

Three points from me:

  1. I’m sorry, but I really think the “Skimming is a scum tell” theory has outrun its course. I’m not even sure it really had any weight to begin with. Sure, it may happen, but so can the opposite. I skim all the time as Town…so no, I don’t think skimming tells us much of anything.
    This point is raised regarding the fact that someone (Sinjin) is voting for Mahaloth for not seeing two things about the rules of the game (or rather, that mod clarified for the game)…and I just have to say: I can relate to that as I miss things all the time that are written, even in the rules at times.

I’m not defending Mahaloth here,… I’m just saying I couldn’t ever vote for someone for that reason as I’ve done it (as Town) too many times to count.

Which brings me to point 2:
I don’t really think sinjin is playing any more aggressive than she ever plays. In the other game going on right now (on GD), I thought she was playing very aggressive in the beginning when I was the one arguing with her about things, but as that game went on, I became more and more sure she wasn’t probably pro-town.
Now, I know history shouldn’t make any difference in these games…but in my opinion, it’s one of those “Eh, it could go either way” things. I’ve seen her aggressive before, so it’s also not a vote-worthy thing in my opinion.

Last point–point number 3-- fluff and OOG:
Sinjin is actually a she (someone calls her a “he” above).
Okay, on to the discussion of random voting.
I think it’s a given that–unless someone seriously messes up–that Day One is going to be the most random day of all to MOST players, so I actually develop minor suspicions over those who are the first (or most) to being it up. I mean, way to state the obvious! We’ve all been playing this game for years now (some of us)…so I just hate people saying things akin to “Okay, gonna vote, but it’s going to be SOOOO random! hehehe!”

176

I meant “was”

177

Ok, so I’ve had a chance to read through the thread and here are some early thoughts:

Voting & all that discussion

Bottom line, both pizza and Chronos seem to be agreeing - we need votes, and considering how many posts and how few votes we have. But multi-voting is a blessing, so maybe spreading some votes around will help. If too many of us are all just pussyfooting around and too worried to offend anybody than perhaps the answer is just to go ahead and break the ice of offensiveness and get some discussion of suspects started.

We’ve got plenty of time, so let’s get some vote records started.

Inner Stickler

It seems like Inner Stickler is pretty noncommittal, in post #80 coming softly against a mass reveal, doing some waffling or very reasonable understanding in posts #84 and 89, and jumping into the random vote discussion in #125.

While that’s not a lot to go on, it could be either that Inner doesn’t want to be a part of some town on town controversy, or that s/he doesn’t want to attract a lot of attention as mafia.

There’s little risk in tossing out a vote at this point, so

Vote Inner Stickler
Askthepizzaguy

As usual, a maelstrom of discussion surrounds pizza. I like a lot of what he has said, but I haven’t seen anything to tell me his motivation yet. I can’t decide if the goading of Silver Jan to vote him in post 153 is something I could think of as a scummy or townie pizza. I really don’t even see a lot of distance between the two in the random vote discussion with him and Chronos. Aside from the weaknesses of vote analysis hitting the fan of reality, I don’t really see much ‘there’ there. Most importantly, I think he’s said some things we all know are true - that we can win this game without the clues and with just active voting based on people’s behavior. But that’s not something he would refrain from saying regardless of alignment.

Not finding anything suspicious, but I have been fooled by pizza too many times to think that means anything.

DaphneBlack

Daphne, if I could ask you for some more information and clarification on post #120, where you discuss voting Mahaloth - do you think there’s anything to be gained by mentioning that you might vote Mahaloth instead of just voting him/her? And do you think Chronos’s point about the vague hypocrisy of liking the plan but not necessarily revealing his clue is indicative of alignment at all?

Thanks for your help in advance. :slight_smile:

Mahaloth

I think your discussion about the ‘bold plan’ has overshadowed what you might do with your votes toDay - can we talk about something not related to the clues… do you have anyone you’d like to vote for? If not, what do you like to look for in a scum candidate for your votes in general?

Chronos

I like a lot of what you’ve said Chronos, but I’m not sure your vote on Mahaloth makes sense to me - is his potential hypocrisy on the clue issue something you see as a scummy tactic? And regardless of whether hypocrisy is a scum/town indicator, is it even hypocrisy? How can we discussion courses of action if someone who tries to think through what doing the non-obvious course of action would be attracts votes?

I don’t know, Chronos, you certainly haven’t said anything I disagree with, but I’m not sure that what we’re learning from your posts tells us much, and I think it’s kinda ‘safe’ stuff that someone wanting to appear pro-town would post, even if their motivations were not pro-town. Sort of an ‘I’m townies than thou’ approach.

Vote Chronos

Johnny Bravo

You’ve talked a lot about the clues - and regarding your ambivalence about your own clue in post 94, I’d say it could be better to hold onto your clue until we have some firmer data to go on. We know Chronos’s clue and Dizzy’s clue, but it doesn’t seem like either of those are likely to lead to a lynch of a particular player. Unless it looks to you like we’re lynching a townie D1, is there any reason you shouldn’t hang onto your clue for another Day?

Or, in an even odder plan - does your clue have to do with a particular player? If so, could you wait until they’ve posted enough that you feel confident they’ve left a useful record of their opinions and then say who that player is, but not reveal the clue? That way, if they have made some sort of slip, we can find it and judge whether they’re likely scum or not without being tainted by the clue being wrong?

Idle Thoughts

I don’t know what to make of your vanilla claim right off the bat, but since almost no one else does that, I’m already suspicious. I don’t know enough to judge whether your claim is one I should trust or not. If you were in my shoes, looking at your claim, what would you look for?

And could I ask what you might have besides discussion of your PM and clue to offer the thread?

Vote Idle Thoughts

Astral Rejection

I’m worried about the implication that for you to defend Mahaloth you would have to be scum and Mahaloth would have to be scum (post 166) - I really don’t see why a scum couldn’t defend a townie, and then be vindicated if the townie is lynched. I think you’re using that post to stack the deck in your favor, and I’d like to know what you think of the other possibility.

Vote Astral Rejection

Darth Sensitive

So far it seems like you’ve focused on pizza’s vote and your clue to the exclusion of all else. Can we hear your thoughts on some of the other players, or where you’d like to place other votes?

TexCat

Not a lot to go on here, I feel your questions to Chronos Astral and Daphne about Idle’s claim too.

It seems we shouldn’t do a mass reveal of clues, so your post 130 can be set aside for now - how would you like to approach a D1 lynch with as little info as we have now? Do you have any suspicions? If you don’t, would you go for a random vote?

Captain Klutz

I dunno Captain, we’ve got two posts about clues and some speculation about recruitment. Since we’re not all going to share our clues, and we can’t possibly find out about recruitment before the end of D1, can we get some votes on the record maybe? Who would you like to vote for?

Rysto

I share some of your questions of sinjin… but can you help me with your suspicion of multi-voting from post 172? Are you suspicious of those who place multiple votes ( :wink: ) or do you prefer games without multiple votes?

Dizzymrsslizzy

Have you played with sinjin before and is s/he usually less aggressive D1?

DiggitCamara

Not enough to go on yet. Hopefully you won’t mind if I ask you some questions in my next wall of words. Sorry about that, getting tired.

septimus

I have to agree that Mahaloth’s just bringing up her/his proposal doesn’t make him/her scum. Can you tell me about the meta-clue idea you mentioned where you don’t think the Mod is using clues in such a way that scum could use them to out power roles or advance their wincon somehow? Why wouldn’t the Mod have done something like that?

Silver Jan

Is pizza really just being pizza? Or is he a breadstick? Sorry, I’m kind of running out of steam here, but I do just want to clarify - you’re thinking this is town pizza we’re seeing?

sinjin

I get from your posts 173 and 168 that it’s not the proposal itself that makes you look askance at Mahaloth, it’s that s/he is willfully disregarding the reasoning others are giving that suggests the game set-up is likely to hurt town in a mass clue-reveal, right? Is that a fair way to assess it? I may have to re-think what I’ve just written about that issue.

Clues

For now, the 2 we know: That a Godfather can lose Godfather status at some point (91) and that the scum have complete false IDs (118) seem harmless or potentially helpful to town. I don’t think we really need to worry about clues - I agree they are likely kind of a red herring… good to kick-start conversation, but not good if what we really want to do is accurately decide who to vote for. I think we should be focusing the lion’s share of our efforts on the latter, and not worry about the clues until each player decides their importance demands we pay attention to them.

178

wevets, I do think that the statement you mention of Chronos’ re: Mahaloth is a stronger point against him.

I stated that I was thinking of voting Mahaloth because I was – thinking of voting Mahaloth – but hadn’t decided. I am more naturally cautious with voting. Since this is a multi-vote game, I should get used to it. I agree we need to vote. I don’t actually want to vote Mahaloth at this point, though I’d appreciate it if he explicitly answered my question (post 167).

I’m not interested in voting sinjin, pizza or Idle now. All seem townie to me.

179

Wevets, he’s voting for Mahaloth because he presumably thinks Mahaloth is scum, and then he implied I was suspicious too. I directly responded to the obvious implication of his post, that we are both scum together. I don’t need to address every single potential possibility in every post, just the ones under discussion.

180

I get it - is this something you usually do (i.e. mention the thought of voting before carrying it out)?

Are sinjin, pizza and Idle your only townie leans so far?