Mafia: Conspiracy 2: The Cabal Strikes Back! [Game Over]

The Game Room
461

[QUOTE=Zsofia]
That’s an interesting question, but I think a flawed one - I don’t think it’s necessary to overthink CIAS’ actions to that degree. “So, I’mna ask everybody’s opinions on a mass roleclaim, but they’ll never do it, so that will get me ____” - particularly since a good thing to fill in the blank with is “lynched”.
[/QUOTE]
I tend to agree. Just because an idea is poor doesn’t mean it is scum-motivated. In my opinion, it’s Townies, not scum, that tend to experiment more and measure their posts less.

Furthermore, from the perspective of a scum player, the mass roleclaim is problematic for two reasons. Firstly, it commits everyone to claiming one of the Townie roles. Of them, many are undesirable. The Coroner, Seer, and Detective would be risky and ultimately you could not confirm yourself. Freemason is a dumb idea - scum would never band together to mass roleclaim as masons (too risky once either one of the real masons or one of the fake masons ends up dead and their role turns up). Witch would mean, if you’re not already Cabal, you’re a huge Cabal target - very limited life expectancy again, plus all the risks of the Masons. The good roles would be Magician, Vicar, Warlock, and Scotsman (not sure about Vig and Witchdoctor). So we’d end up with how many people choosing those roles to claim? Secondly, the information you get is likely to be bad - even if people were publicly pressured into agreeing, you’d have the fake claims from the other teams to deal with and likely some town fake roles as well. Not a great trade for a fake role for yourself to try to maintain.

Is it ultimately anti-Town nonetheless? Yes, I believe so, but I can definitely see scum players opposing the plan on its surface to avoid the above problems. That doesn’t mean that it’s blatant role-fishing and means CIAS is scum. I just don’t think this is a good tell either way.

462

I’m sorry I haven’t been all that active toDay: hopefully my attempts at some substansive Night conversation will make up for my disappearance the past couple days.

I’m not too impressed with Cat’s magic bag. If everyone claims, and the scum all lie (as expected), then we are faced with a very tall task: ascertaining who’s lying and who’s telling the truth before the town loses its majority. The scum probably have three night kills, almost certainly no less than two. The vig won’t be any more sure than the town of who’s lying about their claims, and will probably end up offing himself sooner rather than later.

Plus, there are too many pro-town roles that have reason to disguise themselves: the Witches can’t afford to out all three of themselves immediately: they’re prime targets for night kills, and the town needs to keep them around for the long haul, for oth their powers and their anti-Cabalistic balance.

I don’t necessarily think that Cat’s idea is particularly anti-town, despite this. It’s something that I would imagine would worry and confuse the anti-town players. There are a few roles to hide behind, but a mass-claim probably isn’t great for any single faction, unless you count all three anti-town factions as one. (And who would do that, Cat?)
On the other hand, Nanook has slipped up. My role doesn’t have any secret powers like it did last game. the only roles without secret powers last game (and so therefore wouldn’t have a basis for comparison this game) are the wolves.

You’ve got some fleas on you, Nookie.
**
Vote: Nanook of the North Shore**

463

[QUOTE=storyteller0910]
You know what, Cat, fuck me but I think I find myself agreeing with you. I’m also massively suspicious of the folks who are FoS-ing you and/or voting for you because they don’t like your idea - especially the folks who, having been around the block with this group a few times, ought to know by now that an odd strategic idea that you disagree with does not equal scummy. I am especially intrigued by the accusations of “role fishing” that have been laid at your feet, especially by players who use it as an additive criteria for voting for you. You have explicitly said that you want everyone to claim. THAT is role-fishing, as straightforward as it can be.
[/QUOTE]

Story, while I don’t think CIAS’s idea is well thought out, I don’t see it as necessarily having anti-town motivation. I do not see, however, a town motivation for defending any one. At this point I don’t have anywhere near enough information to warrant defending anyone but myself, and I find it hard to believe that any other member of the town does as well.

I’m rather confused by your comments about role-fishing, you don’t like it that people are suspicious of role fishing, or you don’t like it that they are calling Cat on it? You acknowldge that he is role fishing, so I take that role fishing is ok with you?

I also dislike soft statements like the ubiquitous FoS, so I will start off my actions with this:

vote storyteller0910

464

[QUOTE=Santo Rugger]
Sure, but it seems like we’ve been playing for a week. :stuck_out_tongue:

But, seriously, although the lack of votes at this point isn’t a problem, I have a sneaky suspicion that it will be at the end of the Day. Just a bit of preemptive concern.
[/QUOTE]

It is the first Day, after all. But, since votes are mandatory during this game, I have the feeling that people will try to vote earlier, rather than later, to preempt a mod-kill.

465

[QUOTE=Redwing]

vote storyteller0910
[/QUOTE]

Gotta respect the new guy who comes out gunning for story.

466

[QUOTE=Redwing]

I also dislike soft statements like the ubiquitous FoS, so I will start off my actions with this:

[color=blue]vote storyteller0910[/olor]
[/QUOTE]

Bleached.

Nice job. I don’t agree with your vote but I like your moxie. I hope you stick around.

467

[QUOTE=Diomedes]
On the other hand, Nanook has slipped up. My role doesn’t have any secret powers like it did last game. the only roles without secret powers last game (and so therefore wouldn’t have a basis for comparison this game) are the wolves.

You’ve got some fleas on you, Nookie.
**
[/QUOTE]

You’re incorrect. My “slip”, as I stated before, was based solely and completely on the fact that I do not have access to the full rule set when I’m posting from work. So I made my comment while going off the rule set from the original version. And basing it on your own role and it’s lack of a secret power means nothing, since you don’t know what any other roles may or may not have.

468

Ok, so as Cecilvania’s day ends tomorrow, I might not be 100% focused on this game until then, but here goes.

vote Nanook

This is an early vote, so this will most likely change, but I do have at least some (specious day one) reasonings for it. Nanook made a statement that ALL have a hidden power, which would be an odd statement to make if he himself did not have knowledge or possesion of that power in some such way. Santo already pointed out that special powers have greater odds of occuring in a non-town role.

469

[QUOTE=Redwing]
Story, while I don’t think CIAS’s idea is well thought out, I don’t see it as necessarily having anti-town motivation. I do not see, however, a town motivation for defending any one. At this point I don’t have anywhere near enough information to warrant defending anyone but myself, and I find it hard to believe that any other member of the town does as well.

I’m rather confused by your comments about role-fishing, you don’t like it that people are suspicious of role fishing, or you don’t like it that they are calling Cat on it? You acknowldge that he is role fishing, so I take that role fishing is ok with you?

I also dislike soft statements like the ubiquitous FoS, so I will start off my actions with this:

vote storyteller0910
[/QUOTE]

You can’t see a town motivation for defending people, even on day 1? Take a look at day one in the current Cecilvania. Sach attacked the case against OAOW repeatedly during the first day, as he was sure that the reasonings were weak.

Story is NOT coming around and saying “Oh look, CIAS must be town!” but rather, he does not like the reasons people are using to vote for CIAS. These people are also using the reasoning that he’s rolefishing against Nanook, when clearly he has already asked EVERYONE for their roles, thereby rolefishing everyone already…why would you vote for him asking one person for their role after he has already asked for everyones? Its that reasoning that doesn’t sit with story, and I for one, agree with him on that. It’s a bad, bad case against CIAS… and I don’t agree with his role claim plan right now.

470

On re-read, I do not like story’s snuggle of CIAS at all. Offering alternate explanations for CIAS’ behavior is one thing, saying “I suspect people who suspect you” is another.

vote storyteller

471

[QUOTE=Nanook of the North Shore]
You’re incorrect. My “slip”, as I stated before, was based solely and completely on the fact that I do not have access to the full rule set when I’m posting from work. So I made my comment while going off the rule set from the original version. And basing it on your own role and it’s lack of a secret power means nothing, since you don’t know what any other roles may or may not have.
[/QUOTE]

I suppose I still don’t get what you’re driving at. Are you saying that when you posted earlier, you were thinking that any private actions done by a role were ‘secret powers’? As opposed to secrets not revealed in the role descriptions?
Eh, I’m not buying it. My vote stands.

472

I think my earlier unwillingness to discuss any secret role I may or may not have was a mistake now. Obviously people aren’t going to be willing to just let it go, so let me clear something up. I do not have a hidden secret power. My “slip” was not based on projecting something I have to everyone else, it was based on projecting from the last game to this one, combined with sloppy wording.

473

[QUOTE=dotchan]
On re-read, I do not like story’s snuggle of CIAS at all. Offering alternate explanations for CIAS’ behavior is one thing, saying “I suspect people who suspect you” is another.

vote storyteller
[/QUOTE]

DiggitCamera put out a similar meme to Storyteller’s in post 453

[QUOTE=DiggitCamera]

Having said that, it seems… odd… that it’s become justification for some folks to suspect others. I’ll have to take a closer look at that.

[/QUOTE]

Almost like he is trying to warn people off of following the CIAS line of inquiry.

474

[QUOTE=Diomedes]
I suppose I still don’t get what you’re driving at. Are you saying that when you posted earlier, you were thinking that any private actions done by a role were ‘secret powers’? As opposed to secrets not revealed in the role descriptions?
Eh, I’m not buying it. My vote stands.
[/QUOTE]

No, I was referring to the one shot powers from the first Conspiracy, like the Vamps recruitment, the Witchdoctors ability to talk to the dead, etc.

475

[QUOTE=Nanook of the North Shore]
No, I was referring to the one shot powers from the first Conspiracy, like the Vamps recruitment, the Witchdoctors ability to talk to the dead, etc.
[/QUOTE]

So you’re saying that you have a similar secret power?

Just sayin’… I don’t have one. Not that Pleo couldn’t have given some secret roles to some players, and none to others… but it would be somewhat problematic for game balance. Plus… well, it would make more sense to buff anti-town roles with them, and leave townies as ‘vanilla’ versions of their roles.

476

Just read your earlier post (474) Sorry. disregard the above.

477

Wow, I’'m behind in this game. I didn’t realize night zero had ended until I saw people voting. Time to catch up a bit.

478

I tried to weigh up the pros and cons of a mass roleclaim objectively. As far as I can tell, such an action will aid some of the non-Town factions in their activities. My big problem with the idea is that it virtually guarantees that the Werewolves will wind up focussing their kills on Townspeople.

If we mass claim, I don’t think anyone expects the non-Town groups to claim honestly. The Cabal, the Undead and the Werewolves will all claim some sort of Town role, at least at first.

The roleclaims will fall into two broad groups - “safe” roleclaims and “unsafe” roleclaims. A safe roleclaim is one where the claimant doesn’t have to back the claim up with results, or one where the risk of exposure of a false claim is high. Fluiddruid, in [post=9916822]post 461[/post], outlined some of the considerations.

Each Night, the Werewolves send out a designated killer to eat someone. What is the biggest worry in the early game? That you’re attacking the Vampire. Not only do you fail in your kill, your side loses a player. How to avoid that? Know who the Vampire(s) are, or more importantly who they are not. If we’ve mass-claimed, the Vampire(s) will be in that block of players who have made a safe claim. So attack the other block – and all of those players will be known Townspeople.

Let’s establish some credentials here. In the first Conspiracy game, I was a Werewolf. Not only that, I was the Designated Killer for the first three nights. I worried about my target being the Vampire every night – well, until I got hanged.

Another point is that certain Town power roles will also lie; the Witches and the Detective come to mind. The Detective is probably safe for a while, at least until the Wolves get a bead on her, but the Witches will be in the pool of players where suspicion is focussed, meaning they are more likely to find themselves looking at a lynchmob and being forced to claim in self-defence, and once outed they’re easy targets for the Vampire and Werewolves (who will want the Witches dead because of their investigative capability).

For these reasons I do not favour a mass roleclaim.

479

[QUOTE=dotchan]
On re-read, I do not like story’s snuggle of CIAS at all. Offering alternate explanations for CIAS’ behavior is one thing, saying “I suspect people who suspect you” is another.

[/QUOTE]

Yup. One is defending another player.

The other is trying to find scum.

You tell me: which deserves a vote?

And which is which?

480

[QUOTE=fluiddruid]
I tend to agree. Just because an idea is poor doesn’t mean it is scum-motivated. In my opinion, it’s Townies, not scum, that tend to experiment more and measure their posts less.

Furthermore, from the perspective of a scum player, the mass roleclaim is problematic for two reasons. Firstly, it commits everyone to claiming one of the Townie roles. Of them, many are undesirable. The Coroner, Seer, and Detective would be risky and ultimately you could not confirm yourself. Freemason is a dumb idea - scum would never band together to mass roleclaim as masons (too risky once either one of the real masons or one of the fake masons ends up dead and their role turns up). Witch would mean, if you’re not already Cabal, you’re a huge Cabal target - very limited life expectancy again, plus all the risks of the Masons. The good roles would be Magician, Vicar, Warlock, and Scotsman (not sure about Vig and Witchdoctor). So we’d end up with how many people choosing those roles to claim? Secondly, the information you get is likely to be bad - even if people were publicly pressured into agreeing, you’d have the fake claims from the other teams to deal with and likely some town fake roles as well. Not a great trade for a fake role for yourself to try to maintain.

Is it ultimately anti-Town nonetheless? Yes, I believe so, but I can definitely see scum players opposing the plan on its surface to avoid the above problems. That doesn’t mean that it’s blatant role-fishing and means CIAS is scum. I just don’t think this is a good tell either way.
[/QUOTE]

In addition to expecting a bazillion claims of Scotsman or Vig or whatever, there’s the problem that false roleclaims are extremely confusing even in a smaller, more simple game. It’s going to take quite some time to get “real” information on dead people, so we won’t even start to get anything to measure false claims against for Days. Even then, experienced scum can do really good role claims. So just lynch all the 10 Scotsmen, figuring the one real one is worth the loss? Well, there go the Witches. It just seems like the game as it is now is so confusing, with so many criss-crossing motivations for people to say things and do things, that a mass roleclaim is just a really bad idea.

I mean, essentially our job is to confirm townies, right? A mass roleclaim would make that nothing but harder, and exponentially harder.

That being said, I don’t think the suggestion in and of itself is necessarily scummy. I can see where a townie might think it’s a good idea without really grasping the consequences.

Also, with regards to Witches or other Town roles lying… Sure, there’s times when it’s to the town’s advantage to lie, but there are good reasons to “lynch all liars”. I think it’s a good policy still.