This reaction is in line with my own. A power role trying to come off as a different power role makes no sense. I could see vanilla trying to come off as power or power trying to come off as vanilla, but not power as power. And the self-protection on N1 is not consistent with ToeJam’s participation or reaction to the D1 votes.
As a side note, I have fake breadcrumbed as scum. We caught a real breadcrumb and I fake crumbed that I was their backup. Alas, I never got to make that claim, but I was so happy to see the flip on that night kill was what we thought it would be.
Can someone who has played with Toeoosh before tell me if this is the sort of thing he does? If Biotop had written something like this, I’d be tasting blueberries (Meaning this is the kind of thing he does (or did, I think he’s upped his game since) as scum and is called on it)
I’d rather not lynch our doctor. But I can see this as a last minute scumgambit to out the real doctor. But I do like Paul’s idea on letting scum sort him out instead of wasting a lynch. So I’m not going to revote him today.
I’ll vote Idle if he comes back to avoid modkill.
Gah! stupid job! Making me do actual work today! Total bollocks! I’ll be back in a bit, hopefully with a vote…
NETA I udnerstand trying to get on the scum radar if you are VT, because you are drawing attention away from a real power role. But why would a Doctor pretend to be a Cop?
Is there a scenario where Toejam survives? If he is scum making a fake claim, then the other scum faction doesn’t know this and they will try and kill him. If he is town and claiming for real, then he is also dead.
Because a doctor not using their power is just not pro-town. I already had my plan from N0 to try to attract scum attention, and I was trying to draw out a scum NK anyways. So it’s easy for me to target myself on N1, and I don’t need to read how N1 turns out. I vote myself, and then I request a Sub and let the poor substitute realize what they’re taking over hopefully.
–>I didn’t need to do anything other than to sign onto the Dope, email the Mods, Self-Protect and be done with it. I still don’t understand how this requires more reading than just having participated in a N0 thread.
–> The N1 self-protect gives the future Doctor a chance to continue playing (as I figured I’d need to sub out likely), and lets the Town keep a power role. That’s why I did it. Only after **NAF **pleading that it was super difficult to sub and asking me to come back did I come back and stay.
When I play Mafia, and I’m Town, I want Town to Win then. It takes minimal effort to Vote and keep the Role alive for a D2 Sub at least. Because if I was a VT playing the game, I’d be pissed if my power roles were the ones not participating.
[quote="Plumpudding, post:301, topic:778068"]
@ToeJam:[spoiler][/spoiler] Why do all this? Especially as a power? After a hiatus from Mafia, playing in a gigantic reunion game with more than enough confusion already in the mix, with a bunch of new faces as well as old, that don't know you and your playstyle... Why?
[/QUOTE]
Uh.
Hello. My Name's **Ro0sh**. Nice to meet you. :D
Yeah. IMHO I will say this is a rather Lazy Town playstyle, gone are the days of WOWs and analysis, and in come the snuggles/smudge lists. I admit it’s different world than when I used to play… And when I used to play Mafia, it’s exactly the stuff I’d want to use as scum to try to lynch and manipulate the reads.
This keeps coming up a lot and it’s incorrect. Several players are basically trying to smudge the doctor by saying “let scum sort it out”.
Here’s the problem with that:
–> This is not a regular game of Mafia. This is Double Mafia.
There are Scum for the VTs, but for power roles, there are two classes of threats.
I’m a threat NOT To “Scum” as many have said.
–> I’m a Threat to the “Werewolves” (As they are the one’s with a NK)
–The MAFIA - they have nothing to fear from me. I cannot affect their Day Kills. However, in an interesting game balance twist- they have the one role that I DO FEAR: The Hitman- as the Hitman is the NK Protector Killer.
So this whole “Oh let scum sort it out” is bullshit and either being done purposefully or out of ignorance (and I’m guessing it’s a mix in those smudging my claim).
Really it’s only “Let the Werewolves sort it out”… and give the Mafia the finger on the trigger for killing me anytime they want- Day or Night, as i cannot protect against any Mafia threats on my life.
So for the MAFIA- it behooves them to keep me alive- I’m basically a VT to them, but to the Werewolves I’m a huge threat to their wincon because I can block a potential NK of theirs or they can WIFOM trying to NK me and hope I Didn’t self-protect (honestly, it behooves them to just try to pick targets that I’m not likely to protect as I can’t be everywhere)
The only reason that the Mafia would want to NK me earlier is if there is a claimed Investigator that might be a threat to them and I’m protecting the Investigator, again in which case, the Mafia can just day kill me.
So this whole… “the longer he stays alive, the more scummy he is…”
–>That’s just feeding into what the Mafia ScumTeam wants to happen, but NOT the Werewolf team (Though that’s the sort of thing that the Wolves would be fine with for getting me lynched and out of their hair)
[quote="AngeloftheNorth, post:384, topic:778068"]
You pinpointed what bugs me about the claim. Why would a doc ever try to get people to believe he was a cop?
[/QUOTE]
Again. Because I'm a handicapped Doc. I'm good against the Vig, and against Werewolves. So that's 8 players in a game of 52. The two Doctor roles are really weakened, and have a plot twist to them in that the opposing Scum Team has a specific power that specifically kills the NightDoc and the DayDoc.
So #1: I'm a handicapped doctor playing in a huge ass game.
#2: Who the crap am I going to protect on Day 1-3 barring Investigator claims? Do I just self-protect and try to last till endgame and hope to wait until endgame? I may be arrogant, but I'm not THAT amazing1 at finding scum that I just need to outlast everyone. Plus, I know my playstyle- I do tend to easily get lynched by players who know how to play against me (*cough* **Sach, Boozy, Storyteller** *cough*)
#3: So... Playing a 50+ Mafia Game... how do i MAXIMIZE my efficiency as a Doctor?
--> By trying to draw out scum. Some people play passively and analyze for scum... but in order to do that, you need to have things to analyze. Lynches and busses are keys to that but townies are likely to lynch townies esp in a huge game (I mean D1: you guys' top 3 was basically 2 VTs and a Power role who was absent minus 3 posts). That's rich data in there. because why of all the lurkers was I the juiciest enough to get double digits from 3 posts and my N0 stuff? you need people to drive that lynch for a few days to get it to the last Hour.
--> So again, as a Doctor role- my goal was I knew the limitations of my role. So I made it more Pro-Town. It's a risk, but someone's gotta have the balls to take a risk, and the loss of a handicapped Doc isn't that big a deal in the long run.
--> So my goal was to try to get rid of an NK. And the people who get NK'ed? The one's scum feel they cannot lynch during the day, or investigators, because then every day an investigator is alive is another chance of scum being discovered.
--> That's why I said I'll do the Fake Cop.
-It draws scum attention. And that leads to a 50-50 of having the Wolves at least try to take a shot at me. And because they think I'm a Cop and it's early game... the Hitman (From the Mafia side) is less likely to think I'm protected and may not be looking to go for a kill. So if I can block a Wolf Kill for one night... then I've MAXIMIZED the utility of my limited role.... And it'll also make the WOLVES suspicious of me... but they cannot NK me (Outrider is the anti-DayDoc), so then they have to resort to trying to get me lynched.
-> Trying to lynch the Cop is difficult to do, and would require trying to kill a guy w/o letting him get a chance to claim (That in my eyes is what I was worried/seeing in the final 12 hours of D2---> Because that lynch against me... is the perfect way to Bus a Town Power Role). Noone in that wagon against me stopped to consider "What if he's a power role" "Should we let him claim?" That's shit town play... town got too blood thirsty there. :mad:
But yeah.
That's why experienced players being Docs should ALWAYS consider playing a Fake-Cop. Especially in bigger games. Because it's less likely to get that perfect combo of Cop/Doc double reveal or a Cop who reveals day 1 or 2. Investigators are more likely to want to lay low... maybe drop some breadcrumbs and wait til they actually find scum before claiming. But that can take forever when the pool has 33+ none scum. So the doctor is just wasting his self-protects... especially if the Scum is never even considering him for a NK. And getting heat isn't enough- because a VT with smudges and heat... is not likely to get NK'ed. But a suspected COP with heat.... the Scum will NOT want to keep that person alive overnight to "lynch" the next day... because if scum suspect he's a cop, they know that if they push the lynch, they're going to have a cop claim and then they risk having a cop who they cannot get to due to a protection.
-R
1. Alright, I am pretty frigging amazing though. :D
tl;dr from above:
Because The Wolves can waste a NK on a Cop without realizing he’s self-protecting. Then they have WIFOM trying to target him and wasting their kills even if they suspect he’s the doctor eventually because they don’t have the one role that can NK the protector. They then may have to figure out how to create a shitty lynch to try to kill him.
The Mafia are the ones who want to ID the DOC and then just follow him. They can DK or Protect Kill him anytime they want. But they WANT the DOC to fuck with the Werewolves. The one risk in my plan is… if the Mafia picks up on the Doc, then they may just DK the COP thinking that he’s a cop. But then that fucks them over as they’ve just killed the NK Doc. It’d be my own personal “f*ck you” to them too.
And in all of this buys the real cops more time then. Though, we already lost one from the start -_-
But yeah:
A Doctor is a better Fake Cop than a VT. Docs are overrated the bigger the game gets.
I realized that Last night. I had been debating claiming yesterday vs. toDay, knowing no matter what I did- I was ruining myself by claiming. I could have just claimed Fake-Cop, and VT. But that’s still going to go to lynch.
I could have claimed just Doctor, but they you guys don’t understand my play- and everything I’ve been doing… the goal has been to leave Data at least behind by my death.
But yeah. I don’t expect to make it to endgame. Especially if the Wolves start losing… but I suspect people will be trying to lynch me instead late game… because I’m a “safe lynch” and they can just go “whoops” on reveal.
Currently, there’s a lot of people who were gunning for me hard D1 and D2, and voted for me… but as soon as I claimed, they got real quiet and became Pro-Me.
That’s STILL scummy to me.** BioTop. SunnyDaze. Sinjin. Guiri. ThingFish**. You guys would all be on my “smudge list” if I made those things.
But at this time I’m going to vote for my more suspicious guy: The one who advocated the 3rd party lynch:
Unvote**
Vote Professor Pepper. **
Because a “mechanical” vote on D3? After there’s all these rich vote counts to go through? It’s just shitTown play to pretend this is still a numbers game. There are people (scum even) with bad votes on their records and that should be the focus, not just trawling the lurkers or low posters.
Guiri. I didn’t forget your post. But i’ll respond to your comments separately. .
Also, if you're the one bitching about me doing my own WOW, why didn't you do me?
I requested for a WOW. I even requested for a D2 WOW having explained my N0-D1 stuff yesterday.
But nice job just complaining for making me do the work for you, especially after I said it'd look really suspicious if I did my own WOW.
--So then, are you gonna do my D2? Is that you volunteering? Or do you want me to do that one for you too so you can complain about it?
I wish I could have a second vote right now. Seriously, the vast majority of your contribution is fluff, and mention of policy votes, and then you drop a horrible policy vote on a subject that occupied a significant portion of Day 2 discussion.
I don’t know if you are just playing really badly right now or are scum, but really, this post is one of the scummiest in this game. And those who have played with you before are already voting for you, so they don’t seem to be buying a confused townie stance.
I like my vote where it is right now, but don’t be surprised if I move it to you.
And why is that? Why do you think she’s right?
And Angel of the North, why do you believe this?
So? Who cares at this point if they’re hostile? Do you think they’re going to win within the next 2-3 Days? If not, what’s the rush? We have no evidence they’re a current threat, and 3rd parties are largely useless in the voting record because they almost always vote as town and scum don’t know they’re not town so scum have no reason to adjust their votes for them. So what does their death buy us?
I don’t know of anyone who considers them cleared. You’re obviously not paying attention. The point you seem to miss is THEY’RE NOT WORTH WORRYING ABOUT AT THIS POINT. FINDING SCUM IS A MUCH MORE IMPORTANT CONCERN RIGHT NOW.
r00shJam is always pulling weird shit like this, regardless of alignment. (I’ve only ever played in the same game as him once, and he predates me by a few years, but I’ve kibitzed a few games he’s played in.) As soon as he laid out his plan, I understood the idea of trying to get scum to kill you if you’re a doc who can self-protect because it wastes their kill. I think the whole attempt is silly, but whatever. This is the guy who as scum pretended he had a town role which involved some weird power of having three statements each night, one of which was true, one of which was false, and one of which was undetermined. The role was completely made up of whole cloth.
So yeah, r00shJam pulls weird shit like this. His play isn’t outside of the realm of what he does regardless of alignment.
If he’s lying, I don’t think actual Seward should counter-claim yet.
Others are probably going to see it differently, but to me you went from an anti-town vote to an easy vote on someone I think isn’t going to be around for D4 and someone that I think scum would be perfectly happy to sacrifice. Wanna go for the trifecta and change your vote to ToeJam?
In all seriousness, my issue is that you want to lynch people who aren’t playing. It requires no analysis and no opinion. We can’t assess your possible motivations unless you start asking people questions, point out scummy behavior, and make your positions on topics and players clear to everyone. A lynch of Idle doesn’t do it for me, but it’s preferable to Sach or Crys.
I did believe it but I’ve changed my position on it. I believed it because I have seen “benign” 3rd parties align with scum in voting when it makes it easier for them to survive.
The math has been explained to me several times now and I realize it is not valid in this game because the third parties (assuming they are truly non-win stealing) are more detrimental to scum than town.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
If threefold reasoning is scummy then I should ping you a lot… I approach things from multiple angles…
I was going to let the last statement dangle, but I think I have a slightly more town read on you now, so I think it would be better to get it out there.
Yes your vanity is in your scum play. Yes I appealed to it. If you were scum I would have expected you to lighten up on me. Instead you call me out for appealing to your vanity… adding to your suspicions of me. I don’t think scum you would do this, but it’s been 5 years… you may have new moves and mine are a little rusty…
This is not a numbers game and cannot be solved with math. But you think you’re the player who can finally show the One True Way to resolve a game with minimal effort, is that about right? You’re correct, I don’t buy that premise.
You also think we should lynch 3rd party, and only then we can concentrate on scum. I reject that premise too.
But the bigger question is, if your Mechanical way is, as you say, what works and what you’re going to stick to, why on earth are you voting for a 3rd party instead?! Neither of your premises make sense to me, but your combination of the two reeeeally doesn’t make sense to me.
vote prof Pepperwinkle
(Now to slog through 8 more hours worth of posts. I hate to post without being fully caught up first, but I just don’t think that’s possible for me at this stage.)