I see your point here.
I have considered that there will be more scum, but >50%? I was thinking more like 35-40%, rather than the standard of approximately 25%. If there are more than 50% scum faction do we even stand a chance?
Majority lynch blows horse turds.
Well, the Cabal counts as scum but they don’t get to night kill, so that helps us. Don’t forget that the Werewolves and Undead need to kill each other as much as they need to kill Town. We also have lots of investigative roles. At minimum, I’d say one Detective, one Seer plus the Witches. I would not be surprised to discover that there are two Detectives.
I can’t imagine there are multiple Detectives. In essence, if the Detective is still alive when the Vampire is killed, the town has wons there will only be one death each Night, so the Detective will be able to pinpoint a different wolf each Day.
I’m guessing two Detectives, two Vampires. If there was only one Vampire the Town and Wolves could both choose not to kill anybody until the Vampire was killed, which would screw over the Undead.
Wow… that’s devious. I hadn’t thought of that.
Think much on good strategy for the wolves? ::cough::
How would the Vampire get killed if the Town doesn’t lynch and the Werewolves don’t eat someone? Isn’t the Vampire immune to night kills? The only one left to take him out would be the Vigilante and he only kills at night. If there is more than one Vampire do they know each other’s identities? If not they could potentially target one another? That would be good. 
So you are right about the town having to lynch. We have to get rid of the Vampire(s) post haste!
I know it’s the weekend and all, but we really need some analysis and strategy discussion toDay. Potentially 3 of us will be killed toNight, so post like you might die. There’s a good chance you might.
The Seer tracks him down and then he gets lynched.
The intro specifically says the Undead don’t know each other. I assume the Vig isn’t going to kill unless he’s -damn- sure of his target, as a miskill loses two players for the Town.
I think Rysto was suggesting that the Werewolves wait until the Town lynches the Vampire, thereby preventing the undead from raising any Zombies, as the Vicar could bless the dead one at a time at that point.
On the other hand, if there are two Vampires, then the game would only last 6 weeks or so. So maybe I’m wrong. The Wolves might be against the idea of hunting the Vampire, who doesn’t hurt them directly, nor giving the Seer and the witches time to investigate people for free.
I just had a brainstorm and if I don’t write it down, I’ll forget it.
Please do not do this unless and until there is discussion about it, it might be a bad idea.
If there is a Scotsman in this game, could he claim now, martyr himself, and come back? Pros: We don’t out a major role on Day One, and we don’t lose a Town Member. Essentially get a do-over with more information after the Dawn post.
Cons: We don’t lynch a scum Day One. Gives scum more info to narrow down their choices for a night kill.
What am I missing?
Again, don’t know if this is a good idea or not. I don’t usually talk this much on Day One, but I’ll say again, this is a different kind of game.
On preview, I see that my other question has been answered. Now that I see the implications…yeah, that is devious. The Undead could potentially sneak up and bite us in the ass come mid-game. Obviously if there are less bodies, there will be less Zombies. And with one kill a night the Vicar could keep up with his blessings. If the Werewolves wait to make a kill until the Vampire is identified and lynched, it could be too late for them to win. The Vampire is going to target Wolves as well as everyone else. If there are 2 Vampires then that stategy would be very bad. The Seer would have to stay alive long enough to identify both of them, whilst the Vamps racked up two kills a night. A risky gambit. After thinking it through, I don’t think it would be wise for either the Town or the Wolves to try it.
:eek: I think I just channeled Roosh! I’m going to bed now. Really. Right after I check for new posts.
I really don’t think martyring the Scotsman would work, nor would it be a good idea.
The Scotsman is hardy enough to fight off an attack, but I don’t know if he’s lynch proof.
And we already have Freemasons, which is what essentially the Scotsman becomes after he dies once: just a confirmed townie. If we don’t want to kill anyone, let’s just no-lynch. In this game of information, with all of these power roles, I might be willing to listen to arguments for it: it’ll make the Vicar’s job a little easier, the Town has three investigative roles that would get a headstart, and we’d likely have a definitive count on the number of Vampires by the number of bodies that turn up tomorrow morning.
NETA: On rereading the rules… apparently the Scotsman has a thick neck, too: he can withstand a town lynch. I think the fact that if we don’t lynch him, he outs a Vamp or Werewolf makes him much more valuable unlynched. (if we can help it)
Yes, editing posts is not allowed.
Rules Clarification:
If the Vampire is roleblocked one Night and targeted for Nightkill by another faction, will he die or will his attacker die?
Yes, the Vampire can be killed this way. If a Player’s Powers are blocked, it includes protective Powers, too. This can affect the Vampire, Omega Wolf, Scotsman, etc.
I realize this is conventional wisdom, but I would like to add two things.
- Witches should not breadcrumb. Their information is collective so the risk of losing the information from a night kill is much less than with a solitary investigative role.
- I’ve yet to see breadcrumbing used effectively. So far in the games that I have watched, breadcrumbs have not been successfully identified by the town post mortem. Although, I have seen non-breadcrumbs used effectively to accidently lynch scum, so what do I know? I won’t say don’t breadcrumb, but when the time comes to identify breadcrumbs, I’m going to be skeptical.
I mostly agree, but I think dealing with a mason claim will be more complicated than you state. What you have outlined is a good primer; we can deal with the more complex intracacies when the time arises. You are very correct that investigative roles should not investigate a mason claim and leave that to masons to confirm.
Yes. very very careful. Losing two town in this game would be very bad, that is probably 15-20% of the town population right there.
The Vampire could just as easily kill a Werewolf at night, yes?
There is no reason for the Scotsman to claim right away. I feel it is better for the Scotsman to stay hidden and hope to get night targetted as that will confirm the Scotsman AND waste a scum kill. No sense in wasting today lynching a townie that is self-confirming anyway.
New thoughts:
I suggest everyone re-read the rules several times during the first two game Days. I just re-read the rules and the following has reshaped my thinking.
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Disclaimer: I’m not advocating a roleclaim. The Coroner has a unique power in that it helps both town and scum. I can see utility in the coroner roleclaiming as that will reveal information earlier and will establish a confirmed townie. Also, I can possibly see scum leaving the coroner alone as it is not a juicy role and supplies information to the scum that is also valuable. The downside is this exposes other roles to greater risk of night kill. On the other other hand, this might also expose scum to greater chance of night kill as well. A Coroner roleclaim essentially changes the ruleset to reveal information as it usually was in previous games.
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The Vicar should obviously bless Today’s lynch victim, thus leaving zero dead bodies for the Necromancer on Night One. Therefore, a Day One no-lynch justified by Undead issues is unfounded. The first zombie should not be created until Night Two.
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Due to Pleonast’s implementation of a Last In First Out killing policy, the Vig, if deciding to kill at night should make a very strong effort to put in the kill choice as early at night as possible. This won’t guarantee anything, but in the off chance that the Vig targets a townie that was about to die by Werewolf or Vampire anyway, we won’t lose the Vig too.
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The Witches are a super-mason group, and this worries me quite a bit. I played a mason in M5, and I’m pretty sure our voting record revealed who we were rather quickly. The only difference is identifying typical masons helps scum by identifying who not to kill to get a big power role. In the witches case, they are the big power role. With this in mind, the witches will need to be careful about their voting record. I would go so far as to suggest that they even consider voting for each other in some non-obvious way. (i.e., don’t all vote for each other on Day One, or even at all, or… you get the idea) This is risky as it would complicate a witch counterclaim, but as I said, I worry about the effect the vote record has on the witches.
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Wolves can win without killing Undead and Undead can win without killing Wolves. The win conditions are simple majority, not elimination of other factions (although in the case of the wolves gaining a majority equals elimination of the other factions*). Therefore, all the discussion of a Town-Wolf detente to Vampire hunt is moot as wolves don’t care if the Vampire lives or dies.
*This statement is mostly true, it would require two vampires and a Vig to offset the power of a wolf majority.
The Scotsman is one of the “tripwire” roles I mentioned earlier. His greatest value to the town lies in being attacked, surviving and naming his attacker. “Coming out” would let the scum avoid him and might provoke a counter role-claim which could be costly to sort out.
Thinking about ramifications of role-claims, I’ve realised that there’s a wider issue we need to sort out, which is co-ordinating our overlapping or complementary roles. For example, the Witches and the Witchdoctor can both offer protection to an outed power-role. However, it would be a waste to have both these powers focused on one player. If we’re in a position where we have two outed power-roles, then it will be vital that we’re covering both - but we clearly can’t have either protective role openly claiming in order to sort it out. I’d suggest that rather than trying to argue it out at the time, we come up with with a fixed rule toDay which all parties can follow.
(Arguably, the Warlock is also a protective role, in that the threat of the killer being struck down the next Night might, depending on numbers, be a big enough deterrent to save a life. However, the Warlock is vulnerable to Vampires, so giving out any information about who he’s protecting would be signing his death warrant.)
The second pair of roles which overlap are those of the Vicar and the Witchdoctor. If the Witchdoctor has enchanted a corpse, the Vicar’s blessing is wasted. If we’ve got two corpses and the zombies are mounting up, that could be a real problem. Right now I can’t see any way short of a role-claim to resolve that, but it’s something to think about.
Hi Kat, I felt lonely in the other game.
Rules Clarification
For the Cabal to win, at least one Cabalist must survive.
I agree - the witches must remain secret for the town to have a decent chance to win. Originally, I thought that the Cabal would win even if they were dead and two witches died (assuming, of course, that there are 3 witches, as seems likely), but a Rules review and Pleonast’s post above show that at least one Cabalist must live for them to win. But even so, it seems like the Witches are a definite weak point for the town and must be protected, because it essentially adds another win condition if we get down to one witch or less.