Mafia: The Conspiracy

The Game Room
741

Idle Thoughts,

For starters, several of your points require there to be freemasons in the game, we just don’t know that yet. Although I can see your reasoning behind some of your other points.

However, you went through my enitre post and failed to answer the last question

"What I don’t understand is your continued aggression that sachertorte has to reveal the role of the dead town member when by confirming the role of the dead Wolf provides nearly as good a test with no benefit to the scum at all. "

Why does it have to be **amrussell’s ** role that has to be revealed, why not FP’s.

What is so important about **amrussell’s ** role that it has to be that one that is revealed?

742

[QUOTE=CatInASuit]
Idle Thoughts,

For starters, several of your points require there to be freemasons in the game, we just don’t know that yet. Although I can see your reasoning behind some of your other points.

[quote]

I assume there are since amr claimed to be one. sach said he’s Town, so, if HE and AMRUSSELL is telling the truth, he is one and there are. If he’s telling the truth but amr isn’t, then why would he lie and have the other Freemasons possibly outing him as a liar or voting for him?

And if he’s not telling the truth, then what better reason to lynch him?

Because of one very simple thing you apparently haven’t thought of.
FP’s role MAY have been none other than just Wolf, but if amr is really Town, he’ll have a role.

Nothing important about it at all other than it might be the only one that can be verfied later (if FP is just “vanilla Wolf”)

743

[QUOTE=Idle Thoughts]

[QUOTE=CatInASuit]
Idle Thoughts,

For starters, several of your points require there to be freemasons in the game, we just don’t know that yet. Although I can see your reasoning behind some of your other points.
[/quote]

I assume there are since amr claimed to be one. sach said he’s Town, so, if HE and AMRUSSELL is telling the truth, he is one and there are. If he’s telling the truth but amr isn’t, then why would he lie and have the other Freemasons possibly outing him as a liar or voting for him?

And if he’s not telling the truth, then what better reason to lynch him?
And as for your other question, it’s because of one very simple thing you apparently haven’t thought of.
FP’s role MAY have been none other than just Wolf, but if amr is really Town, he’ll have a role.

Nothing important about it at all other than it might be the only one that can be verfied later (if FP is just “vanilla Wolf”)

744

[QUOTE=Idle Thoughts]

And as for your other question, it’s because of one very simple thing you apparently haven’t thought of.
FP’s role MAY have been none other than just Wolf, but if amr is really Town, he’ll have a role.

Nothing important about it at all other than it might be the only one that can be verfied later (if FP is just “vanilla Wolf”)
[/QUOTE]

I am aware that FP may just be a “vanilla Wolf”. However if he turns out to the the Alpha/Omega Wolf, I will have no problems voting for **sachertorte ** because there is no reason to withhold this data other than being scummy.

745

And I am with you on that, Cat… but there MAY BE, again, the chance that FP is just “Wolf”.

However in amr’s case (someone sach has said is Town) he WOULD have a role. Thus, I think pinpointing his holds a bit more water, even if it’s a simple “yes or no”.

746

[QUOTE=CatInASuit]
Hmm,

A powerful but pretty unverifiable power role unless he guesses right vs. the fact that **Idle Thoughts ** looks scummy.

Decisions, decisions… :frowning:
[/QUOTE]

Oh, and you’re wrong here. I am verifiable. Very verifiable, actually, and it has to do with the rest of my powers.
I am not going to reveal those powers right now, however, if I’m still in the hot seat tomorrow, I shall (unlike a certain sach does–although if you all continue to keep your votes on me just to pressure me into revealing it, you’ll become exactly what you’re voting ME for and have to unvote me and vote for yourselves :slight_smile: ).

747

[QUOTE=Idle Thoughts]
I bring people back to life. I don’t protect them. I didn’t know that the/a Witchdoctor was the Doctor for this game. My simple mistake.
[/QUOTE]

The witches are the Doctor role in this game. The Witchdoctor is a little different.

748

The town is simply going to have to be patient. I’ve given the matter considerable thought, and no Role information is going to be revealed by me Today. Simply put, I’m baffled by the logic put forth otherwise.

Idle Thoughts’s statement that he will reveal his special power Tomorrow has me greatly concerned. I’m not sure how to interpret that. It’s a bit ironic/hypocritical, but I’m left wondering, why tomorrow? What is so special about tomorrow? What does Idle Thoughts wish to do TONIGHT that he so desperately seems to want to do? I have an idea, well more than an idea. I was going to do an information dump at the end of the Day to preserve my thoughts and information in case I die Tonight, but Idle Thoughts’s desire to live through just one more night makes the reveal now, more apropos. It also explains why Idle Thoughts chose Witchdoctor as his roleclaim. (I hope I’m right about this).

The following few posts were ment to be coherent, but they were written in pieces over the last few days. And I wrote them before thinking Idle Thoughts was total scum, which I now do.

749

At the beginning of Day Two when I revealed what I knew, two groups knew my role was confirmed: Cabal and Wolf. Cabal knew I was telling the truth and therefore a coroner because they know that I am not a Cabalist and they know that One and Only Wanderers is Cabal aligned. Similarly, Wolves knew I was telling the truth because I am not a Wolf, and they knew Fretful Porpentine is Wolf aligned. For those of you not keeping score, this is precisely why I didn’t reveal Role information. Strategically, there is no benefit to Town in knowing roles for the duration of Day Two. The downside was it served as a distraction (sorry for that), but my reason for keeping the information hidden was because while the Town, Undead, and Cabalists, did not know the role of Fretful Porpentine, the Wolves did. I have no idea if this gambit will prove fruitful, but hopefully the Day Two record in conjunction with future events will reveal motivations behind players either overly interested in Fretful’s Role or conspicuously not interested at all. I’m not sure, but that was my reason. I purposefully wanted to keep the knowledge held by scum different from the knowledge held by Town in the hope that a mistake might be made or behavior towards my lack of supplying information might reveal something useful.
Therefore, it is my hope that future rereadings of Day Two with two facts in mind might help reveal Cabal and Wolf:

  1. Cabal knew that I am a Coroner throughout Day Two, while Town did not.
  2. Wolves knew that I am a Coroner, while Town did not.
  3. Wolves know Fretful Porpentine’s alignment, while no one else does.
  4. Cabal know OAOW’s alignment, while no one else does.
    I suggest that Endgame Townies look at Day Two with the benefit of future information and a smaller population.
750

(Oh, I forgot to say earlier that I’ve withheld from discussion because I’m operating on a different set of information. I’ve supplied this information to the Town, but you can’t treat it as valid yet, but I can)

I’m not sure what the town consensus is (discussion has been very sparse this Day). But it seems the initial reaction of players would be that Wolves killed amrussell and the Vampire killed Fretful Porpentine. On the surface, this is a reasonable explanation of the events of Night One. Night One could very well have occurred this way; however, an alternative possibility is the Vampire killed amrussell and the Wolves (Fretful Porpentine) attempted to kill the Vampire and ended up dead instead. This course of events is less probable, but considering motivations of Wolves and Vampire, seems more plausible to me. The Wolves’ desire to kill a claimed Freemason seems off to me. This action runs counter to typical scum play. It is possible that Wolves killed amrussell to break up the Freemason network that was forming around her, but I wonder about the Wolves being afraid of the Freemasons instead of going after bigger targets (even if only by chance) such as Seer, Detective, and Witch. Furthermore, wolves know the identity of their comrades and have no fear rolling the dice on an unknown.
On the other hand, the Vampire would be well motivated to kill amrussell, a claimed townie, who had very little chance (none really) of being the Necromancer.
Consequences:

  • The Wolves know whether or not this hypothesis is true.
  • The Detective should know whether or not this hypothesis is true.
  • The Vampire knows whether or not this hypothesis is true.
  • If true, my confirmation as a pro-town role makes me a likely candidate for being the Vampire’s victim tonight.
  • If false, my bringing up this hypothesis stupidly gives the Vampire some bright ideas (oops).

On a Day Two re-read I noticed that my realization that Fretful was possibly a Vampire-backfire victim did not come from nowhere, it comes from Rysto’s post 561 where he states:

[QUOTE=Rysto]
There’s way too many possible roleclaims for us to fully appreciate all of the subtleties of any one roleclaim. For example, just yesterDay I said that a Werewolf would be happy to kill a claimed Seer because they’ll either kill the real Seer or opposing scum like the Vampire. Of course, the Vampire can’t be night-killed by the Wolves so that was a nonsense piece of reasoning.
[/QUOTE]

Why the sudden change in perspective? Is it possible that Rysto, along with Fretful Porpentine selected the Vampire and had Fretful do the deed, and so the events of Night One reminded Rysto of the Vampires night abilities? I find it peculiar that Rysto mentions the Vampire’s night abilities so early in Day Two.
In the same post (561) Rysto also states:

[QUOTE=Rysto]
Fretful’s death is a mystery to me at this point; he’s not been on my radar at all.
[/QUOTE]

Which strikes me as scum going out of his way to state that he knows nothing. I don’t think Fretful’s death is a mystery to Rysto at all.
Rysto also cautions the town to be wary of believing my role until I’m confirmed (561, link above):

[QUOTE=Rysto]
I expect this goes without saying but until sachertorte’s claim is validated by Pleonast we can’t use his information. We have no idea whether this information is correct and it’s possible that sachertorte is scum and is trying to lead us wrong for a Day before getting lynched himself. I know that it’s tempting to follow up what could be our first piece of solid information, but we can’t afford to take the chance that sachertorte is scum.
[/QUOTE]

This is, of course, good advice. However, Rysto either ignores his own advice or is again revealing he knows more than he says:

[QUOTE=Rysto]
I say leave sach alone, and if he was wrong on OAOW’s alignment, Vig him. If he’s wrong on either of the night kills, lynch him tomorrow. We could even let him live Day 3 and Vig him Night 3. That would allow the Vig to let us know whether there really is one in the game.

On the other hand, having that knowledge might help the scum more than the Town. If they know that there’s a Vig they’ll try to claim some other role instead.

The other problem with Viging him Night 3 is that if he’s the Vampire he’d get to kill one more time. Any thoughts?
[/QUOTE]

Which I find problematic because implicit in Rysto’s statement is the assumption (near certainty) that OAOW is not the Vigilante. (n.b. Rysto previously stated his belief in a single Vig in the game) This indicates to me that Rysto has reason to believe OAOW is not the Vigilante. In other words, Rysto knows I’m truthful in my role because he’s a Wolf or a Cabalist.
These points combined with Rysto’s invocation of the “Bringing up the third vote is a scum tell” from Day One makes Rysto my [DEL]number one[/DEL] candidate for scum*.

Idle Thoughts is now number one.

751

And this is where I start to possibly step on peoples toes. With that in mind, I’ll put out this disclaimer: I’ve noticed that certain players follow a completely different logic pattern than my own. Historically, logic incompatibilities have not been good indicators of scum, but I put out my thoughts here regarding DiggitCamara and IdleThoughts.

DiggitCamara I know for sure we have different views of the world, and things that look perfectly logical to him look like gibberish to me and vice versa. To me DiggitCamara has gone out of his way to find reason to question my roleclaim. I have the advantage of knowing my roleclaim to be truthful, so my analysis is unavoidably biased.
First, DiggitCamara supposed that I was a Cabalist and therefore knew the alignment of One And Only Wanderers and was banking on Fretful being turned into a Zombie and having her Side obfuscated. There are multiple problems with this line of logic. 1) Fretful is not guaranteed to become a zombie 2) The Vicar could bless Fretful 3) Zombies still have their Side and Role revealed on schedule. When corrected, suspicion was then shifted to my revealing Fretful’s Side as a lucky guess. I do not follow this logic at all.
For some reason DiggitCamara was unwilling to let my role go and just wait for correct or incorrect data from me. I am suspicious of this behavior. But I must also state that I’m always suspicious of DiggitCamara so this might mean nothing at all.
Also there is the needling fact that in all the supposition, DiggitCamara takes OAOW as a Cabalist as a given, which is weird for a Townie to do. Why not suppose I knew Fretful’s alignment and guessed OAOW? Something there just doesn’t sit right with me.
There is also post 562 :

[QUOTE=DiggitCamara]

  1. One and Only Wanderers certainly false claimed. After all, he claimed after amrussell already had claimed. **amrussell **showed exactly how a freemason should claim
    [/QUOTE]

Which seems to indicate that DiggitCamara knows that OAOW false claimed, which I know to be true, but DiggitCamara should not know this to be true yet. Of course the rest of the post is so wacky that I can’t really understand what is going on here.

752

Similarly, Idle Thoughts put forth discussion that questioned my role and how I was playing my role. Again, the logic eludes me. In
post 634 Idle Thoughts stated:

[QUOTE=Idle Thoughts]
It would be much more confirming if he could say if amrussell is a Freemason or not.
[/QUOTE]

which baffles me because in my opinion such data would be of very little value towards confirming my role. It is my opinion that revealing Side information of the essentially random players that end up dead is a very powerful indicator that I’m telling the truth. Also I can demonstrate this ability every DAY.

So I am left wondering about Idle Thoughts. He seems quite keen on squeezing as much information out of me as possible. It’s possibly legitimate Town curiosity, but why the interest in amrussell specifically and less so on Fretful Porpentine? Is he scum wanting to know as much as possible about amrussell? Does he already know Fretful’s Role and is therefore not as interested in her?

The whole thing doesn’t make sense to me. I don’t really see scum making the production that Idle Thoughts did, but something about the entire exchange just bugs me.

… And now I know why (or I at least have a guess) … read on.

753

I am posting my thoughts here, very late on Day Two, for specific reasons, the most salient being the Day Two Dusk post by Pleonast will add weight to what I have to say. Furthermore, the Day Three Dawn post should confirm my role adequately. Locating this post as close to my confirmation as possible seemed like a reasonable thing to do. I didn’t want to post this important information during Day Two because it would only have distracted the Town and would have been muddied by my as yet unconfirmed status.

Things you need to know that I didn’t want to bring up until my role confirmation was complete. I don’t think I can wait that long so here are the goods…

Warning: The stated ruleset given to us by Pleonast is not complete. There are game mechanics and rules that are hidden; specifically, a recruitment mechanism exists in this game.
I started the game with this extra piece of information and have been mulling how best to warn the town that recruitment is a possibility. I felt that bringing up the information before I could confirm my role would be damaging to the town, as a discussion distraction. My plan was to lay low (Ha!) and roleclaim on Day Two. The Day One roleclaim didn’t hurt my plan too much, except that the ‘pressure’ roleclaim makes the bar of proof a bit higher for me.
Anyway, I feel the information will be of best effect now that my confirmation is near.
Wolves and/or Vampires (I’m not sure which one or if both) can recruit. As far as I can tell, the process will ‘look like’ a Witchdoctor’s enchantment. That is, the recruited player will be dead then come back to the game. As far as the rules imply, the only way for this to occur is through Witchdoctor enchantment; but assuming the rules are complete in this respect would be incorrect. I was given information that states that recruitment will follow the same pattern. Beware of resurrected players. The Witchdoctor should be able to confirm whether or not he/she enchanted the revived player. If the witchdoctor is dead, well you know what to do. If multiple witchdoctors? Uh well, good luck with that.
I do not know how many times scum can recruit. From a game balance perspective, my guess is a maximum of one Vampire recruitment and one Werewolf recruitment. But this is my guess. Also note, that in Pleonast parlance “Recruitment” == “Curse”

So with my secret revealed, I fulfill the obligations of my role to the Town. Good Luck.

754

Now that brings us to Idle Thoughts and the needling fact that I’m not confirmed yet.

It is my opinion that Idle Thoughts has the ‘special power’ of recruitment. This would explain why he is so keen on revealing his power Tomorrow instead of Today. It also might explain his interest in amrussell if recruitment fails against certain roles. In M5, Monks (masons) were not recruitable. If a similar immunity exists in this game for recruitment, then a recruiting role would want to know if Freemasons exist in the game or not.

From my perspective, Idle Thought’s plan is:
Today, Roleclaim Witchdoctor
Tonight, Recruit player A
Tomorrow, “Wow, look player A is dead! But I enchanted him! He’ll be back tomorrow. This will confirm I’m the Witchdoctor!”

The problem is, I’m not confirmed yet; so the Town has little reason to believe me yet.
If we wait until tomorrow, Idle Thoughts will have the opportunity to recruit… BUT you now know this! So whether you choose to kill Idle Thoughts Today or decide to wait, his recruitment should be identifiable now that you know (or at least will have a better idea that I’m telling the truth Tomorrow). So I think that problem has been averted. Optimal play would be to lynch Idle Thoughts now, but I understand if there is hesitation.

Vote Idle Thoughts

If revealing the roles of amrussell and Fretful Porpentine will increase my credibility, I’m willing to do so; but from my perspective, revealing these roles now does nothing for the Idle Thoughts issue since the Roles will not be revealed by Pleonast until Day Four.

755

[QUOTE=Idle Thoughts]
Oh yeah, amrussell ain’t coming back to life either. Not unless there’s another Witchdoctor.
[/QUOTE]

Why no statement about Fretful Porpentine? I read this as “I killed amrussell, I didn’t recruit her”
When I saw that recruitment was an option, I felt that maybe the Vampire would opt to recruit ASAP since if he died, then the opportunity is wasted. I was also worried that if amrussell were recruited she would reveal who all the other masons are (immunity makes sense from a game balance point of view now that I think about it). So the good news is amrussell was not recruited, at least not by Idle Thoughts.

756

[QUOTE=Kat]
Did you miss the part where Idle had several posts outlining his suspicions against sach before you or he voted? I don’t think you did, because your reasons for voting sach was:

(post #654)

I’ll also point out that I called out both Idle and Rysto. I just am, overall, getting more of a scummy feeling from the context of your vote than theirs.
[/QUOTE]

At that time, Idle was voting for Rysto, I believe. I voted for sachertorte. Again, how is that a “me, too” vote?

757

I had another thought about Idle Thoughts:
When Idle Thoughts first stated that he had a secret power, my immediate reaction was I believed it. I had secret information, so it made sense to me that other players might also have secret information (or powers). But as I thought about the situation, the probability that ‘secret power’ == scum recruitment became greater and greater.
I bring this up because Idle Thoughts was riding me very hard saying there is no reason why I would not reveal more information about amrussell. If Idle Thoughts is truly pro-town and truly had a secret power, then he would not have pursued me with such vigor. Any Townie with a secret power would have assumed something secret was why I was being so silent.

758

Vote count, please?

unvote sachertorte

I’m not convinced by sachertorte here, but the return to the thread and gigantic info-dump is enough to remove my pressure vote, at least for now while I digest it all. The only part I find difficult to believe is the whole “The mods told me about a secret recruitment role in my PM” thing. It seems conveniently aligned with Idle’s roleclaim. If you had that info all along, why not mention it as soon as you were forced to claim, so we could figure out a way to deal with it? Was there any good advantage to keeping it secret for this long that I’m missing? And also, more importantly, can anyone else confirm this information, or was sachertorte the only person to whom it was provided?

Simply put, right now I can’t decide which of you two to believe. So right now I’m just going to put my vote back to where it was before.

Vote DiggitCamera

759

Drain Bead. I understand that you don’t believe me. I never expected the Town to believe me right away. My hope was that I would make the statement and my role confirmation as Coroner would do the rest. The information is now there, and Pleonast will reveal Sides of three players quite soon. All this combined should insulate the town from the worst effects of recruitment.

I never expected that Idle Thoughts would tip his hand and allow me to expose recruitment in this way. (Plus I could be wrong about Idle Thoughts. I don’t know that he’s scum, I just very very strongly suspect). I don’t expect Town to have the same suspicions as me either as they don’t have the same information that I do. But as I can confirm my role day-after-day then the info-dump becomes more valuable. Originally the info-dump was meant for endgame use, after my role was clearly confirmed.

760

Oh and it is not a “secret recruitment ROLE” as far as I can tell. I believe it is just a tacked on power that wasn’t listed in the published ruleset.