Mafia: The Conspiracy

The Game Room
761

Now that’s what I call an infodump/explanation :eek:

Thank you for taking the time to explain your reasoning sachertorte.

The only strategic reasoning for revealing a role (whether **FP ** or amrussell) is to confirm your towniness to the general Town and not leave us wondering if you really are the coroner or just a lucky guesser. Thinking about it, considering how long it will take to reveal the roles, we don’t find out until Dawn Day 4, I would suggest revealing them just before the start of Night 3 instead of now.

You will be under suspicion until then, but it will prove your towniness at the start of the following day. Of course, if you get it wrong you will be the obvious target for lynching that day. :wink:

It’s nice to see that it’s not just NAF/Kat who are Bastard Mods[sup]TM[/sup], it looks like **Pleonast ** has been hiding rules from us and that we get to have fun with the recruitment option again, somehow that doesn’t surprise me (assuming **sachertorte ** is telling the truth of course). Oh great :frowning:

Idle Thoughts: I don’t like it when people start doing the “I’ve got a secret, but I’m not telling”. (Hold on, you’re Pleonast in disguise aren’t you? :stuck_out_tongue: )

762

[QUOTE=CatInASuit]
Thinking about it, considering how long it will take to reveal the roles, we don’t find out until Dawn Day 4, I would suggest revealing them just before the start of Night 3 instead of now.
[/QUOTE]

Agreed.
Also I will have revealed the Sides of Tonight’s casualties (assuming I survive the night).

763

[QUOTE=Drain Bead]
Vote count, please?
[/QUOTE]
I’m in California, let me get my beauty sleep, ok? :smiley:

I made my sig more clear, for those looking for the most recent vote count.

764

sachertorte, I am glad to see you are back and posting information, rather than sitting quiet in the corner, even if it is late in the Day to dump this huge load of information/speculation on us :wink:

I have one thing to comment on at the moment, then a question. First, I was happy to see this:

[QUOTE=CatInASuit]
Thinking about it, considering how long it will take to reveal the roles, we don’t find out until Dawn Day 4, I would suggest revealing them just before the start of Night 3 instead of now.
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=sachertorte]
Agreed.
Also I will have revealed the Sides of Tonight’s casualties (assuming I survive the night).
[/QUOTE]

I’m glad you’ve changed your mind about revealing Roles, as that will make it more likely to lead to your confirmation/unmasking sooner.

Second, I have a question about this whole recruitment thing.

[QUOTE=sachertorte]

Anyway, I feel the information will be of best effect now that my confirmation is near.
Wolves and/or Vampires (I’m not sure which one or if both) can recruit. As far as I can tell, the process will ‘look like’ a Witchdoctor’s enchantment. That is, the recruited player will be dead then come back to the game. As far as the rules imply, the only way for this to occur is through Witchdoctor enchantment; but assuming the rules are complete in this respect would be incorrect. I was given information that states that recruitment will follow the same pattern. Beware of resurrected players. The Witchdoctor should be able to confirm whether or not he/she enchanted the revived player. If the witchdoctor is dead, well you know what to do. If multiple witchdoctors? Uh well, good luck with that.
I do not know how many times scum can recruit. From a game balance perspective, my guess is a maximum of one Vampire recruitment and one Werewolf recruitment. But this is my guess. Also note, that in Pleonast parlance “Recruitment” == “Curse”
[/QUOTE]

You seem somewhat confused about who can recruit and how it happens. Can you tell us exactly what your role PM said about this recruitment so we can evaluate it? (That’s not against the rules, is it?) You’ve already revealed the big secret, so I don’t see any reason not to be as specific as possible.

765

Dear Lord. I haven’t even had coffee yet and sachertorte comes and dumps this on us. And oh, another role claim. Great.

I have a morning full of classes today so I don’t have time for an extended post, but I will simply confirm that I’m keeping my vote where it is, because sach’s explanation seems marginally more convincing than Idle’s. I considered going for a no-lynch, but that would give us nothing. On one hand, the Witchdoctor is a powerful and useful Town role and I would like to give Idle the benefit of the doubt; on the other, Idle’s harrassment of sach and sach’s infodump leaves me skeptical. Of Idle. And the whole recruitment possibility throws everything into chaos; especially if sach is telling the truth and it works like a resurrection. :smack:

The one thing that I am certain of is that Pleonast is evil. :mad:

766

[QUOTE=ShadowFacts]
Can you tell us exactly what your role PM said about this recruitment so we can evaluate it? (That’s not against the rules, is it?)
[/QUOTE]
Players can post putative PMs as they like. Obviously, I will not confirm anything.

Yep. Specifically, lawful evil.

To answer the inevitable questions: I neither confirm nor deny the existence of any hidden or secret rules. I will state unequivocally that there are no secret Roles.

767

Idle Thoughts, I am rapidly beginning to believe that you are full of shit.

Again, you have ignored this point. Even though you quoted it, you continue to ignore it:

Idle Thoughts, where is the coroner if not him?

Why do you feel that sach is such an imminent risk when no other Coroner appears to be in play?

In addition, why is it appropriate for you to withhold information from us regarding your “secret power” when you pressed sach so hard for information that you felt he was withholding? What is different between tomorrow and today?

768

[QUOTE=sachertorte]
And this is where I start to possibly step on peoples toes. With that in mind, I’ll put out this disclaimer: I’ve noticed that certain players follow a completely different logic pattern than my own. Historically, logic incompatibilities have not been good indicators of scum, but I put out my thoughts here regarding DiggitCamara and IdleThoughts.

DiggitCamara I know for sure we have different views of the world, and things that look perfectly logical to him look like gibberish to me and vice versa. To me DiggitCamara has gone out of his way to find reason to question my roleclaim. I have the advantage of knowing my roleclaim to be truthful, so my analysis is unavoidably biased.
First, DiggitCamara supposed that I was a Cabalist and therefore knew the alignment of One And Only Wanderers and was banking on Fretful being turned into a Zombie and having her Side obfuscated. There are multiple problems with this line of logic. 1) Fretful is not guaranteed to become a zombie 2) The Vicar could bless Fretful 3) Zombies still have their Side and Role revealed on schedule. When corrected, suspicion was then shifted to my revealing Fretful’s Side as a lucky guess. I do not follow this logic at all.
For some reason DiggitCamara was unwilling to let my role go and just wait for correct or incorrect data from me. I am suspicious of this behavior. But I must also state that I’m always suspicious of DiggitCamara so this might mean nothing at all.
Also there is the needling fact that in all the supposition, DiggitCamara takes OAOW as a Cabalist as a given, which is weird for a Townie to do. Why not suppose I knew Fretful’s alignment and guessed OAOW? Something there just doesn’t sit right with me.
There is also post 562 :

Which seems to indicate that DiggitCamara knows that OAOW false claimed, which I know to be true, but DiggitCamara should not know this to be true yet. Of course the rest of the post is so wacky that I can’t really understand what is going on here.
[/QUOTE]

Actually, like I stated before, my wrong interpretation of the rules prompted my mistaken attack on you. I still didn’t see why you were withholding information from the town at large, but by now it seems you did so with good reason (trying to have wolves + cabalists trip over the information they had and that no one else could know).

I still will keep an eye on you (just in case some of your information turns out to be wrong) but for now I must say your position makes sense.

On that note, it seems you have a good point on Rysto’s role, so I’ll

vote Rysto

769

I wish I had thought through the timescales for role revealing earlier, it would have saved so much hassle.

Pleonast: You have definitely been to Bastard Mod[sup]TM[/sup] school :stuck_out_tongue:

770

sachertorte, you could have saved us some grief toDay had you just revealed your info up-front. Oh well.

I’m inclined to believe you. Your claim about recruitment has the ring of truth. I agree with almost everything that you say, except for your suspicion of me, of course. Remember, f I know that you’re the Coroner because I’m a Wolf or a Cabalist, I would know that you’re not going to get any Sides wrong. If I know that, I know that there’s no reason to bother with considering Vigging you.

Anyway, I was beginning to believe that Idle Thoughts was Town because I thought that sachertorte was holding back the Roles unnecessarily. Now that I know that there is a good reason, I have to wonder whether Idle Thoughts is another Townie who just didn’t know any better or whether he’s scum trying to get some critical information. Given how scummy I thought he looked earlier(and bringing up the mass-role claim looks even more sinister with the revelation of recruitment roles that look like the Witchdoctor’s powers), I can’t believe anything that he’s saying.

Unvote sachertorte
Vote Idle Thoughts

771

Shadowfacts, it’s not confusion, it is ambiguity. When I got my role I fired a bunch of PMs to Pleonast about recruitment. For the most part I got “That’s for me to know and you to find out.”
I don’t know that Wolves definately can recruit or that Vampires definately can recruit. I just know that recruitment is a valid game mechanism and that it follows the pattern of witchdoctor enchantment, and that if anyone recruits it will be Vampire and/or Werewolf. I don’t know what powers were explicitly given to the scum though, so my interpretation is just that, interpretation.

I’m kind of surprised that Pleonast is willing to let us quote PM’s from him, my understanding is that this is usually not allowed. But since he says its okay, here you go:

[QUOTE=Pleonast]
20. Coroner (Occult) - sachertorte

You are a Coroner. You will automatically know the Role of each dead Player, even ones under the enchantment of the Witchdoctor. You also know that the curses of Vampires and Werewolves are infectious. Furthermore, you know a dead Player may come back as a Vampire or Werewolf. I will automatically inform you of your discovers.

Please PM, email me, or respond in the game thread Mafia: The Conspiracy - The Game Room - Straight Dope Message Board to confirm that you have received your Role and are ready to play. The game will start on Friday Sept 28 at noon, Pacific Time.
[/QUOTE]

Other details:

  • Recruitment (curse actually) resolves like kills, that is, FILO (First In, Last Out).
  • I do not know what will occur if scum try recruiting someone targetted by a Witchdoctor.
  • I do not know how recruited roles will investigate.
  • My reveals of alignment will have no effect on the Vigilante.
  • I’m the one who nagged (his words) Pleonast into clarifying MHaye’s misconception about Witchdoctor enchantees having their alignments revealed. I knew this had to be wrong because I knew about recruitment; and asked Pleonast to publicly clarify the Witchdoctor game mechanics.
772

[QUOTE=DiggitCamara]
On that note, it seems you have a good point on Rysto’s role, so I’ll
vote Rysto
[/QUOTE]

(color removed)

I seem to have missed this in the massive info dump. Can you please explain what the case is against Rysto?

773

[QUOTE=sachertorte]
Agreed.
Also I will have revealed the Sides of Tonight’s casualties (assuming I survive the night).
[/QUOTE]

And, for my part, I’d like to hear a bit more about the resurrection possibilities (and, if it doesn’t hurt, your role’s involvement in that situation) as soon as possible.

Don’t you think that would be a pretty good way to help Town?

774

That’s a lot of stuff to absorb.

My gut reaction to Sachertortes claim was that it sounds consistent with typical folklore for both Vampires and Werewolves. Possible, yes. Certain, no.

But it explains why the alignment of revived players is not revealed.

I’m very suspicious of Idle right now (when am I not?) as well as Rysto, for reasons given around the time I voted for him. The one factor that makes me hesitate to vote for Idle is that if Sach is telling the truth, there almost has to be a Witchdoctor, and no-one has risen up to counterclaim… There’s only 3½ hours remaining.

Vote for wh you believe is most likely to be scummy.

Unvote Rysto.
Vote Idle Thoughts.

A Witchdoctor claim makes a perfect cover for a recruiting scum.

775

[QUOTE=ShadowFacts]
(color removed)

I seem to have missed this in the massive info dump. Can you please explain what the case is against Rysto?
[/QUOTE]

Well, as far as I understand it:

  1. **sachertorte **withheld some information he had about the NightKills to see who would divulge information they couldn’t have unless they were scum
  2. Rysto touched upon the possible involvement of the vampire on the NightKills
  3. sacher deduced that (possibly) the Nights events had involved an attack by the Wolves on a Vampire which backfired and killed the wolf commissioned with the attack (FretfulPorpentine)

So, Rysto’s comment, in context, might indicate he knew that the Vampire somehow was involved in the werewolf’s(?) death.

776

sachertorte, thanks for all of that detail - it was exactly what I was looking for. While of course you are still not confirmed, all signs point to you being legit at the moment.

I will also say that this does not necessarily mean that Idle is scum. I’m going to have to have a close look back at his (prolific) posts before I make any vote change.

777

[QUOTE=ShadowFacts]
(color removed)

I seem to have missed this in the massive info dump. Can you please explain what the case is against Rysto?
[/QUOTE]

My info-dump split over two pages, Look at the bottom of Page 15:
Or click here Rysto

[QUOTE=DiggitCamara]
And, for my part, I’d like to hear a bit more about the resurrection possibilities (and, if it doesn’t hurt, your role’s involvement in that situation) as soon as possible.

Don’t you think that would be a pretty good way to help Town?
[/QUOTE]

See Post 771. Was there something else you wanted?

778

[QUOTE=DiggitCamara2. Rysto touched upon the possible involvement of the vampire on the NightKills[/QUOTE]

Excuse me? I did no such thing. I was talking about how trying to plan for every possible role claim was impossible, and backed that up with an example. I myself had said on Day 1 that the Werewolves would be happy to night-kill a claimed Seer, because even if it was the Vampire, for instance, the Wolves would kill off a competitor. That, as I said earlier toDay was balderdash because the Vampires can’t be night-killed by anyone but the Vig. In fact, when I posted this I had totally forgotten that the whoever tries to night-kill a Vampire gets killed themselves!

779

Catch-up time:

[QUOTE=ShadowFacts]
If you have time to post in several other threads and start a Pit thread, you have time to post here, IMO.
[/QUOTE]
Pshaw. Which takes longer – a quick-hit post after scanning a thread, or catching up on a couple of pages of posts in a game that requires a thorough, careful read of every post? Starting a pit thread took five minutes – catching up here took a couple of hours.

Upon further reading, thanks Zoggie and Blaster Master for noting the same points.

Now then, for my money, sachertorte seems legit. Because of this, and his greater knowledge, I’ll trust his lead this time around and…

Vote Idle Thoughts

…and prepare to beat myself like a house elf if I’m wrong.

780

[QUOTE=sachertorte]
My info-dump split over two pages, Look at the bottom of Page 15:
Or click here Rysto

[/QUOTE]

Yep, I found it just as you posted that :slight_smile:

I admit my head is spinning a bit after reading that, but it really seems like a pretty weak case to me. I’m not defending Rysto here, just saying that I do not appear to be seeing what you and Diggit are seeing.