If the scum roles have any Day powers, then Pleonast beats me to ribbons in the Bastard Mod[sup]TM[/sup] contest.
Just some quick points on Idle Thoughts. I don’t want to get too deep into this, because I’d rather the rest of the players evaluate your claim from their viewpoint.
I find it silly that you keep harping on me when I have yet to do anything wrong. I’ve been correct in identifying all the information Pleonast has provided thus far, before he stated it publicly. I can’t do more than that. Even if I had given out Role information yesterday, you can’t confirm it until Tomorrow.
I have demonstrated a non-zero amount of my role’s power.
Idle Thoughts, until you can “confirm” yourself, I’d appreciate you stop hounding me. Yesterday, it was somewhat understandable. Today, not so much.
I also take issue with Idle Thoughts’s assertion that he is one of the most powerful roles in the game. First, I think you are overstating your role quite a bit. In your original power claim you state:
Which confused the crap out of me, because I interpreted this as an additional power, but on re-read it seems that this is a sloppy re-iteration of the documented Witchdoctor power.
Second, stating so sounds like a desperate attempt to sway the town not to kill you (which worked).
Finally, since Idle Thoughts has taken the stance of confronting me on every decision I make, I’ll just say, that I’m not believing a word of Idle Thoughts until he confirms his role.
As he says:
Then do it.
Oh wait. You can’t.
While its nice to say that you can be confirmed, you haven’t done anything towards actually doing so. How long should the town wait for Idle Thoughts? I claimed on Day One and we didn’t get any hint of confirmation for me until Day Three. How do we propose confirmation of Idle Thoughts?
There is also the annoying fact that the power used to confirm Idle Thoughts is NOT listed in the public rule set. We have no way of knowing that talking to the dead is a pro-town power. My inclination is that it would be since scum talking to the dead seems pointless, but we don’t know for sure.
While I hate to be the “me too” guy, this sums up some of the thoughts I’ve been having since Idle claimed.
I was addressing Idle Thoughts. I wasn’t taking a firm stance against what you said, ShadowFacts, I was cautioning – because I saw what happened last game. The game became incredibly hostile at one point regarding post amounts and I don’t want to see that happen again.
If we’re going to make a rule that referencing other games is a strawman argument, then let’s say it. Don’t try to call it a strawman argument for not being a direct rebuttal of what someone said in this game otherwise, as it’s basically misleading.
I think we need to start addressing the “never lynch important roleclaims” rule that has apparently cropped up. This game, everyone is going to role claim. Hell, there’s even a reason for Town to falsely roleclaim, given how people have responded so far. Drain Bead failed to roleclaim and died. You and Sach did roleclaim and lived (with mimimal confirmation of Sach and zero confirmation of you).
If we’re going to start lynching anyone who votes for a roleclaimant then we’re going to get in trouble. I agree with Sach - we need to find a way to verify roleclaims promptly. You said you could be verified easily - so please, fill us in.
Zoggie is a newbie. I think overall I’m seeing a real expectation for absolute precision which is not realistic. Making mistakes or not having rock-solid lynch reasoning on Day One is a non-tell as far as I’m concerned. (Yes, we should still address and vigorously draw out poor reasoning, especially as the days go on, but we had precious little to go on early in Day One.) Zoggie’s reasons for voting for you now are far more clear, and I can’t say I wholly disagree.
I’m not in favor of lynching you, Idle Thoughts, just to be clear. But you must realize that a claim like this, that you are now voting for people for even having the nerve of voting for such an important role as yours, and that you have secret powers, really starts to make me (and, I’m sure, others) wonder. And that’s why I’d like to get you confirmed as soon as possible.
**Rysto’s ** posts.
And edited because there are quite a few.
Fluff - #6, #24, #125
#36, Comment on Vig role.
#134 - Joke re. optimal stragey for Vicar
#158 - Random.org vote for amrussell
#165 - Comment that we should not do a mass role claim
#190 - Comment that Hockey Monkey can’t know anything special + strategy thoughs
#193 - Comment that side is more important than role and no-lynch is not a good option
#195 - Comment on number of scum and no-lynch
#197 = comment on majority lynch
#199, #200 - Comment on alignment and role discovery
Comments on vampires + detective + town strategy for dealing with them
#203, #205, #208, #210
Thinks there are 2 vampires + 2 detectives. Suggests wolf + town no-kill until Seer discovers Vampire.
#222 - Quotes Ploenast’s Cabal piece.
#227 - Comment on witchdoctor role and vampire
#238, #239 - Comment on false Cop Claim by scum through breadcrumbing
#265 - unvotes amrussell, votes sachertorte over his vote for MHaye
#276 - Comment on third vote is a scum tell.Provides reasoning for vote.
#280 - Comment on voting reasons
#294 - unvotes sachertorte, not willing to lynch based on sachertoret having poor reasoning.
#307, #312 - Comments on vicar
#347 - Comment on scotsman role
#365 - Comment on roleclaims
#371 - Votes Idle Thoughts over No lynch discussion
#381 - Commenton making a list
#415 - Comment on the undead
#419 - Comment on witch counter claim
No Lynch Posts
#487 - Comments that Vig is verifiable, Unvotes Idle Thoughts, vote no lynch.
#490 - Comments that no more time to start new bandwagon and more comments on Vig.
#493, #504 - Comment on Vig + Vampire
#496 - Comment on people voting
#508 - Comment on investigators not investigating OAOW
#510 - Comment on final vote score.
#524 - Night Fluff
#561 - Comments on validating **sachertorte’s **claim, night deaths and town strategy
#593 - Comment on town not claiming to be other town.
#600 - Comment on looking at previous posts and verifying the Vig.
#604 - Comment he thinks there is only one Vig in the game.
#606 - Comment on town strategy
#608 - He would be stupid to be a cabalist to postpone OAOW’s lynch
#625, #626, #627 - Comment on vigging sachertorte if he is wrong about OAOW
#637 - Votes Idle Thoughts due tio taking quotes out of context.
#641 - Clarification of his thinking concerning Vigilantes.
#650 - Comment on the Vig and sachertorte
#670, #671 - Comment on Vig killnig scum.
#675, #686 - Comment on sach revealing sides/roles
#687 - Unvote Idle Thoughts, votes sachertorte to pressure to release info.
#705 - Comments on Idle Thoughts commenting on sachertorte
#717 - Provides more reasoning for voting sachertorte
#770 - unvotes sachertorte, votes Idle Thoughts after sachertorte’s infodump
#778 - Comment on false role claim strategy
#787 - Comment on Idle Thoughts role claim and bandwagon
#794 - Comment on Idle Thoughts bandwagon
#805 - unvotes Idle Thoughts, votes DiggitCamara over misquoting
#809 - Comment on possiblity of Warlock.
#820 - Comment on scum attacking Idle Thoughts over night.
#824 - Comment on Idle Thoughts role’s abilities
#828 - fluff
#839 - Comment on Idle Thoughts validating claim
And I think that is it. You want links, go do it yourself.
The heating’s not working and my feet are cold. I can’t think when my feet are cold. Bear with me here; I’m trying to think out loud.
Here’s the thing about not lynching roleclaims: the clusterfuck that happened yesterday. I don’t know about you guys, but the whole sachertorte debate made it rather difficult for me to get a read on anyone else (I think Hockey Monkey also made this point). Because I felt that the whole thing was serving as somewhat of a smokescreen for scum, I decided to vote Idle Thoughts because his was the loudest voice in the discussion. I think a lot of others felt the same way, because eventually he garnered enough votes to pressure him into a roleclaim. There was very little time left in the Day when he did this, so now everyone gets thrown into confusion. The Witchdoctor is an important enough role that it isn’t worth lynching on a suspiscion (although IMO the Coroner is as well) but voting for no one makes you look scummy, and voting for a no lynch leaves us with nothing to go on for the next Day. Somehow, in this general chaos, the votes get piled on Drain Bead, and she is lynched before she has the chance to make a role claim. For all we know, she could have been a Witch.
But what if she had role-claimed? What then? Would our votes get all tossed up into the air again and end up landing on the next random vaguely suspiscious looking person, only to spark another roleclaim?
The thing is in this game (and fluid has made this point as well) there are no vanilla townies that we can lynch while we figure out the validity of a roleclaim. The votes that a roleclaim disperses will inevitably land on yet another person who will be forced to respond with a roleclaim of their own (whether they actually have a town role or they are scum), which has everyone running around in circles while the Day ticks towards the end.
I guess my point is that automatically unvoting someone on the chopping block because of a roleclaim is not really a good strategy in this game. I’m not saying that we should disbelieve all roleclaims - I’m saying that “Well, you never know, so you might as well unvote me until you know for sure” is not a valid argument in this game, no matter what your role is. When a roleclaim is made, we should read the case being made and then decide to unvote or not, instead of unvoting by reflex simply to gain more time. Which makes early voting so much more important in this game, I think, as well.
I don’t know about the Coroner being such an important Role to the town so much as it is a verifiable Town claim. We’re still so far away from a Lynch or Lose situation that if someone claims Seer or Witch or Coroner or Mason (the four roles which seem most obviously verifiable to me), we can wait to see if their information pans out. A Role Claim which we can’t verify based on subsequent information seems to be something we should avoid unvoting on, if the role claim is the only reason for unvoting them.
You’re absolutely right. Unfortunately, at this early point of the game, it’s much harder to build a reasonable case against someone, especially with the slow development of information. I’m trying to figure out a particularly good candidate for voting, and the two scummiest vibes I’m getting off people are Zoggie and fluiddruid. (I would add ** Idle ** to that list, but I’m allowing his claim for the moment, pending his method of verification.)
** Zoggie **, in large part because of her actions from yesterday, and her OMGUS vote on ** Idle ** today. However, like ** fluid ** noted, this can just be attributed to this being her first game. I spat scumtells like crazy in the Firefly game (to the point where people barely believed the mods when I ended up getting zapped over there).
** fluid **, on the other hand, presented much the same argument you did, ** Hazel **. On the other hand, fluid then tried to build up a case against Idle, and refused to back it up with a vote. ** fluid’s ** arguments for suppressing large amounts of contributions could very well be an attempt to lay cover for other Scum who are on the lurkier end of things. Also, minimizing strategy discussion and vote analysis now looks like a great way to limit the Town’s information gathering later on.
So, in the spirit of voting early and voting often, I’ll toss out a
Vote: fluid druid
Blue vote, red unvote; blue vote, red unvote; blue vote, red unvote
Just saw this. As another possibility, there could have been a roleblock on the wolves or the Vampire. It feels like the more we know in this game, the less we seem to know.
You mean besides on revealing the roles of ANY dead players so far when there isn’t and never was any reason to hold that info back, especially when working together with MY role?
You’ve revealed amr is Town, OAOW is Cabal. FP as a Wolf…all of which you could do by being a Cabalist and being lucky ONLY ON FP.
DB you’ve claimed is Town and if you get it right, I WILL be trusting you just a bit more because even just sides gotten right over a long period of time relies on more and more luck that may soon run out IF you are lying. But you could easily verify yourself just by revealing ONE role. You don’t seem to want to help out Town when I, the Witchdoctor, have told you that I need to speak with a Townie for my power to work. But I don’t know the roles if you don’t tell us. I could learn a whole lot more a whole lot sooner if you would, rather than waiting for Pleo to reveal them and taking the chance I could be killed at Night somehow.
At least we’d HAVE something to compare it to.
How can I confirm myself when it relies on knowing what roles people are, and you, who holds that power, refuses to do so?
[quote]
I also take issue with Idle Thoughts’s assertion that he is one of the most powerful roles in the game. First, I think you are overstating your role quite a bit. In your original power claim you state:
No, not until I talk to a Witch or Freemason, in which case I’ll be confirmed by OTHER people. Kinda hard to DO that when I don’t know who the Witches or Freemasons ARE, know what I mean? :rolleyes: I mean, sure, someone can claim that before they die. Are they telling the truth? Are they lying? I COULD find out right away, but ONLY YOU hold that key. And you are refusing to give it up. You are making the/a Witchdoctor have to wait a whole Day and Night (and run the risk of being killed) before he finds out from Pleonast what the role is…when you could just easily say it.
Easy. You tell me of a dead Witch or Freemason in this topic if/when you find them, and I talk to them that Night. Either that, or I just wait until one is revealed by Pleo and hope I live that long.
I’ve already said how I’m confirmed. Does nobody LISTEN in this game?
I talk to a dead Townie and I learn all they know. If this is a dead Freemason, then I will learn who the others are and that secret sign. So if I learn of this and MAKE the secret sign. obviously the other Freemasons will know I was telling the truth. Do neither of you get this? But not only that, if I talk with a dead Witch, I learn who the other Witches are and they become aware of who I am. I’ve said this already three or four times. Is that not verification? To Players in the game? If you don’t think it is, then you and I/dictionary.com have different means of the word “verified”.
So I’ve just said it again. That is how I’m confirmed to PRO-TOWN players. To you? Well, sure, if you’re one of those group roles.
But it all hinges on talking to a dead one of those groups.
And THAT all hinges on KNOWING if one is a Witch or Freemason (or anything–Seer, Detective, etc) after they’re dead.
So, pray tell, how can I confirm myself until I talk to someone who is a Witch or Freemason?
And how can I do that until I KNOW of one who is dead? :dubious:
I swear to God, either you and sach are not reading what I’m typing or you both are being deliberatly obtuse just to get me lynched.
Okay, again:
I talk with a dead Witch or Freemason. I learn all they know. And in either case, they become aware of me and know I’m telling the truth. So if you’re a Witch or a Freemason, yeah, I’ll be verified. To a small group of players, only, but still verified to others, at least. I think that’s enough since most people say that “Freemason” is a verified role.
Who cares if she’s new? It was the sort of question you’d ask in PM and then have Pleo post it in here. Seems to me it was a free way to say, then “I’m not Cabal since I have to ask this of Pleo in here.” It was Day One. I found this suspicious.
Eh? Voting for people plural? I’m voting for Zoggie, whom I voted for on Day One. I didn’t vote for anyone else who voted for me after I role claimed. Why? Because she already had that extra suspicion and seemed to be the only one, even after everyone unvoted, still pursuing.
OK, that’s perfectly reasonable.
Have I suggested making some kind of rule about referencing other games? Where would you get that idea from? If you were talking about some other game as you say above, that’s fine with me. But the problem is, you didn’t mention another game in the post I quoted, so how would I know that was what you were talking about? The reason I called you out for strawmanning is because nobody said what you were rebutting in THIS game, and I said as much in my earlier post.
Anyway, it’s a minor point and probably not worth arguing about…
You *really *know how to make people like you, don’t you? 
I don’t want to speak for anyone else, but I think some of the reaction to your roleclaim is that your verifiability (is that a word?) is complicated. **Sach **is easy: he gets it right or he is scum. We just have to wait for Pleo’s role reveals to be sure. Simple.
For you, we need to wait until an appropriate role dies. Then the role has to be identified if you don’t want to chance wasting your supposed power. Then you have to talk with them. Then, assuming you talked to a freemason or witch (and not, say, a detective), one of those roles has to reveal themselves and say “Yep, **Idle **is telling the truth”. (If we’re talking Freemason, I think there would be even another step, because they would have to spend a day giving you the secret sign, but the results of that don’t come until the next day, right?)
That’s pretty frikkin’ convoluted and could actually take much of the rest of the game to play out. Not to mention the fact that we don’t want a witch announcing themself just to confirm you. That would be ludicrous.
None of this is any reason to lynch you, necessarily, but when you jump up and down shouting “I’m verifiable, I’m verifiable,” in reality it’s not quite that easy.
Actually, if it’s the Detective, Seer, or one of the witches that’s dead, Idle would be verifiable if he could pass on their results to the rest of the town. If they’d hit any scum, Idle could be a conduit to the rest of the town for their results, post mortem.
NETA: -could- be verifiable, not -would-. If the dead person didn’t have any scum pings yet, he couldn’t pass on any useful info.
Not so simple. sach has not revealed any roles yet. In fact, he hasn’t even said whether or not the last two bodies (Hal and Rysto) were Town, Wolf, or Cabal. So not very hard to be right for sach, now is it? When you’re that general, you’re bound to be right most of the time.
Exactly. So, how am I supposed to do that if sach doesn’t do what his role says he does and never reveals roles?
[quote Then you have to talk with them. Then, assuming you talked to a freemason or witch (and not, say, a detective), one of those roles has to reveal themselves and say “Yep, **Idle **is telling the truth”. (If we’re talking Freemason, I think there would be even another step, because they would have to spend a day giving you the secret sign, but the results of that don’t come until the next day, right?)
That’s pretty frikkin’ convoluted and could actually take much of the rest of the game to play out. Not to mention the fact that we don’t want a witch announcing themself just to confirm you. That would be ludicrous. [/quote]
It doesn’t matter. I’d still be verified. To you? Yes, if you’re one of those roles. No, if you aren’t. That doesn’t change the meaning of the word verified.
Here is how it’s going down as I see it. Please tell me if I’m wrong.
Sach: So get verified already. Thought you said you could be?
Idle: But you need to do this before I can.
Sach: I’m not doing that. So get verified already.
And nobody finds that stupid for Town? I only hope the people in the forbidden topic are seeing how idiotic that kind of sense/logic/thought process is.
The sooner Sach starts revealing roles or at least the ones I need to know so I know who is who as soon as possible (like his role says he’s supposed to do), the sooner I can be verified to those select few.
Exactly.
So see, for those TRUE Detectives, Seers, Witches, Freemasons out there if they are in this game, it’s best to have faith in me or at least wait to see what happens.
But again, I can only do it as fast as when I know who those roles are after death.
My 2p on Idle Thoughts and role verification.
Idle Thoughts, the only question I have to ask is how are you going to verify your role to the entire town without revealing away another town power role.
Yes, if you manage to “nightspeak” to a Witch or Freemason. You will be able to confirm yourself to that small group. That will not verify you to the town in general unless one of that group comes forward and says so. That is not something we want.
If you speak to the detective or seer, we do not know whether or not you are telling the truth or have made up a list.
The only way I can see to self-verify without revealing any over roles is for you to use it on Drain Bead and tell us at the start of Day 4 what role she is. This will confirm you as who you say you are when Pleonast confirms her role. The down side is that removes this power for when a more useful role comes up.
One last thing you said you needed to know the role before you use your power, you don’t you only need to know the side as you stated in you role description. It is just more useful with other roles.
If he nightspeaks to a witch, detective or seer, we’ll lynch whom he says to lynch. If they’re not who he says they were, we lynch him. I’m still hoping that in this game, killing a scum is worth killing a townie. That’s hard to say, especially depending on who he picks, if he’s not telling the truth.