Don’t be so close minded. I’ve deliberately not told you the roles of players because their roles are precisely a mechanism for you to confirm yourself.
For example:
I’ve told you that amrussell is TOWN. That is sufficient information for you to use your power. You don’t need to know what her role is. You can ASK HER YOURSELF. Thus you could have done so last night, and then today you could announce amrussell’s role. I would confirm/deny you are correct, and you will have confirmed your power (even further confirmation when Pleonast shows you are correct). But now the amrussell option is past. Tomorrow morning Pleonast will announce her role so you will not be able to preempt the public reveal.
Don’t you get it? I don’t need to reveal amrussell’s role to confirm myself.
So no, Idle Thoughts, I have plenty good reason to sit on Roles. And I’m kind of offended that you take this ridiculous position that no one else could possibly understand how to play their own role better than you. How the *#(@ was I supposed to know that you wanted role information to use your secret power? You kept wailing about “confirming” ME – which makes no sense. I will get opportunity (obligation) to confirm myself day after day after day. So forgive me for ignoring your ridiculous requests. :rolleyes: Furthermore, I gave you sufficient information to use your power, TOWN ALIGNMENT. Of course, if you are lying about your role, then obviously you would want me to tell you Roles, because you would not be able to report back to the town with accurate information.
You had a plan for self-confirmation. I see a different plan.
So here we are, amrussell is out since her role gets stated by Pleonast in the morning. Are you prepared to trust me enough to talk with a dead player of my choosing then tell the town their role to prove your power claim? (NB, power claim, not role claim) Personally, I think we should do this Tonight since waiting for a choice role seems… well tempting, but problematic from a time management point of view. (Also note, that Drain Bead’s Side will be revealed before your Night Action for further confirmation of me before you make a final decision). If you agree and the town agrees, I will speak nothing of Idle Thoughts for the rest of the Day save for a last minute post telling Idle Thoughts who to talk to tonight.
I just want to say that if Idle is telling the truth, then we probably don’t want him talking to amrussell. If amrussell was a mason, then all Idle would have would be confirmability. The best usage of his ability (and I think he said his extra ability could only be used once a game) would be to get information from a dead investigator.
NETA: and if amrussell was an investigator, then he didn’t have a chance to use his ability. And if he was neither mason nor investigator, then there’s no reason for Idle to be disturbing his grave.
This isn’t going to work and **Idle Thoughts ** has done it too himself.
You see, the way I see the likely turn out on Day 4 is that** Idle Thoughts ** will come back tomorrow night and say he was blocked and now he can’t use his power anymore.
The simple answer will be because of one of two reasons.
He is the WitchDoctor and the Cabal will block him overnight to prevent his self verification getting him lynched the following day.
He is a lying scum.
Now for the WIFOM.
If the Cabal block him, he cannot do anything which makes him a good target for the wolves and vampires.
If the Cabal do not block him and he uses his “nightspeak” power he cannot self ressurect leading to Wolf or Vampire kill if they target him.
If the Cabal do not block and he uses his ressurect powers a killer is in for a shock in two days time.
However in using his ressurect powers he cannot “nightspeak” and so verify his role, probably leading to his imminent lynching.
Have I even started, not remotely…
If a Warlock targets him, and a wolf kills him, **Idle Thoughts ** remains blocked if the Cabal target him and the wolf dies.
If a Warlock targets Idle Thoughts, and a vampire kills him, **Idle Thoughts ** dies and the Warlock dies the following night.
Of course, the witches could decide to protect him rendering all attacks void but does that prevent the Cabal blocking Idle Thoughts and so he he gets no read again.
If Idle Thoughts is really lucky, everyone gets nervous and targets other players.
The only answer I have to discern is. “Are you the kind of person who would target Idle Thoughts”
You do realise that Freemasons don’t actually know each other at the start of the game, don’t you?
Any given Freemason may know nothing except who he is and the secret sign, if early investigations have gone badly. It’s entirely possible that amr, even assuming he’s telling the truth, knows no other freemasons at all. If he committed to investigating somone else (say you) all he will learn is that you are not a Mason. Then if all the other Masons had picked investigations and did not come back to the thread in time to change their investigation, asking amr who the other Masons are will elicit no response.
Of course it´s quite possible that some Masons did investigate amr, in which case it would be worth investigating him.
Your impatience to verify yourself worries me just a little. Why insist on doing it now? It can surely wait until Day 4 to speak to amr, or is there some time limit? I forget that detail.
I have been looking back at the end of Day 1 given that we now know that OAOW was a Cabal member.
Considering the usual thoughts that are had concerning no-lynching, it was surprising to see at least three people voting No-Lynch.
They were Rysto (#487, #490), **MHaye ** (#494) and sachertorte. (#495)
Now Rysto provided a certain amount of explanation yesterday and is now deceased, so we can discover his role shortly. **sachertorte ** has claimed to be the coroner and is slowly validating his role. Also the pair of them said the main reason for doing this was that if he was lying the Vigilante could kill him.
MHaye said the reason for doing this is thast we would need as many people as possible to win the game??
**MHaye ** - can you explain what you mean by this as this is not usually a good reason for a No-Lynch where the need for information is normally held to be more important than an individual townie even though we are playing in a purely power role game.
sachertorte, I don’t think it’s a good idea for Idle to use his speaking to the dead ability simply as a means of confirming himself. There are so many other situations where it would come in handy, such as if a Witch or a Detective is killed before they have a chance to share information. Idle can only do so, however, if he knows the role of the dead.
The problem with you telling Idle who to talk to without revealing the role of said dead person is that Idle will have to trust your judgement with no questions asked. Or all of us, actually, will have to do so. Somehow I doubt this is going to happen.
Basically, I think there are a lot of scum in this game. It was then my belief that we had ten players distributed between the scum factions. The game works not because the Town outnumber the Scum, but that the scum factions have to fight each other as well as the townies.
For the Town to win they have to keep as many Townies in play as possible. The various scumside teams can win by reducing the number of active players to a certain minimum. What I was concerned about was that the Town cannot afford to lose too many players or we’ll lose the game.
Given the choice between lynching a claimed power role that we had ten minutes (or less) to post analysis about before Nightfall or voting No Lynch to preserve the player for Day 2 and take time to think through the issue, or lynch in haste and repent at leisure, I chose the former option.
OAOW’s claim turned out to be false, thus driving a huge hole through my analysis. At the time, though, it seemed the best option.
Why would I have to do that? As far as I can tell, Masons have always been considered a “verified” role to players because there are others who know they are telling the truth.
So what? As far as I can tell, Masons have always been considered a “verified” role to players because there are others who know they are telling the truth.
What would make me any different?
True, but it’s all moot anyway until I know who is who. Only then will I decide who I will speak with.
Sorry, I’m not taking that chance. sach said she was Town but I still don’t fully trust sach. Until I can or until the trust builds up over time, I’m not going to just go on one person’s word alone who refuses to only give half the info (sometimes) and no info at all (in the case of Hal and Rysto) others.
Sorry, I’m not taking that chance. sach said she was Town but I still don’t fully trust sach. Until I can or until the trust builds up over time, I’m not going to just go on one person’s word alone who refuses to only give half the info (sometimes) and no info at all (in the case of Hal and Rysto) others.
So you are impeding the interest and good of Town? That is very, very anti-Town. Not telling me just so I WON’T be confirmed? I’m reading this right?
If I’m ever dead and gone without ever being verified, I SO hope everyone in this game puts so much pressure on you for it. IF YOU ARE really the Coroner, you are screwing things royally for Town by doing what you’re doing. You are NOT having the Town’s best interest at heart by not giving out any info.
You have again and again said you are going to reveal roles “later”, yet you have done none of this. Hal and Rysto have died and you have even yet told us SIDES. Why? Why not? Are you afraid you’ll “guess” a side wrong?
You are pushing for suspicion on me and you seem to be forgetting one thing IF YOU ARE the Coroner. That when I’m dead (and revealed to be the Witchdoctor), scum will have a GREAT REASON to lynch you. “Because you didn’t do what Idle Thoughts said all the time. He was right”, and then they’ll turn on YOU, and if you’re really the Cononer, God have mercy on your game soul.
Right now, though, IF YOU REALLY ARE the Coroner, we have a chance. Our roles work together. But right now IF YOU REALLY ARE the Coroner, you’re being and acting extremely foolish, ignorant, and anti-Town.
And apparently I’m the only one that can see it.
You could be lying. You have not said any roles, which would give you IMMEDIATE VERIFICATION in my mind. Instead, you choose to do the “slow bit by bit” plan where you just gain trust little by little just getting sides right…and that’s when you reveal the sides even, which you haven’t done for all of the dead players yet. If you think roles is info, hey, that’s all well and good. Whatever your deluded mind wants to believe. But what about sides?
Why would I want to take a shot in the dark and waste my one time power on someone who could be scum? OR, if she is Town, someone who wouldn’t be able to yield much info? I’d much rather talk to a Witch than anything, but Freemason, Detective or Seer work well. If I could talk to her and did and she turns out to be NONE of these things or any Town role that reveals info, guess what? I wasted my talk. I’m beginning to think you want that.
Apparently you don’t need to reveal sides anymore either as you have not yet done so with two players.
No, you don’t. What are they? Tell me one and I’ll leave you alone.
But you haven’t yet and I don’t see how you could if you refuse to give roles or, in some cases, even sides.
What info are you speaking about to bring back to “my side”? How would info of any kind help scum?
Where did I say that? Self-confirmation? I’ve told you how I can be confirmed by people. You refuse to do your part. You are playing anti-Town.
Sorry, but no. I cannot trust someone who
Only gives out half the info and
even then, only gives it out SOMETIMES
I find that suspicious and anti-Town. Thus, I don’t trust you right now.
I’m so glad that you can predict what I’d do in this game but how about letting me play my own role and you play whatever side or role you have? Don’t guess at what I’d do. I may look stupid but I’m not as stupid as you seem to be thinking I am when it comes to this game.
But I can be protected.
But I can be protected.
This operates under the guise that I’m enchanting myself. But it would apply to anyone I enchant.
Oh yeah? How could I not be verified this way? If I’m the one killed and ressurected, I’d say that was a pretty big point in my favor (as if there weren’t many other ways out there). If someone I’m enchanting is killed, and I’m still alive come the next Day, I’ll say right away if the person is coming back. When they do, there you go…otherwise, how would I have know?
And yeah, sach brought up recruitment that happens to look like a resurrection. Oh gee, how convienent. Well see, then when it happens again and I call it and the player comes back to life, it still applies.
I’d still get the secret sign though. That’s the key/link.
No time limit but it seems there are more than a couple people still willing to cast suspicion of me and even one who’s willing to lynch me in the Days…so I may be SHORT on time.
I can understand why you feel that if claim you talk to a Freemason or Witch you are as good as verified. If you claim it, the Witches and Freemasons would know by the following dawn whether you were telling the truth or not and so could out you.
Fair Enough.
Also would it have helped if I had thrown a few smilies into my WIFOM post.
I am claiming no knowledge of how you are going to play the game or any knowledge of how any of the other disparate groups and people in this game are going to act. It started off with the simple principle of the easy way to make you look scummy if you were not scum, and it spiralled from there and was more to highlight the absurd amount of possiblities. The only way I could know what your action would be, is if I was you.
Idle, you are not master of this game. There are things that you don’t know and there are things that you apparently don’t understand. For you to state that the rest of us are incapable of playing this game as well as you and we should just blindly follow everything you say is insulting and unfun.
At this moment, I am as confirmed as I possibly can be at this time. More information from me does not improve my level of confirmation at this time. If I felt that more information would help the town, I would state so.
You are being contradictory. How can it be that you are willing to act on roles I give out, but not on sides? You keep saying you need role information to pick out a dead person to talk to. Yet when we point out that no, all you need are sides, you go back to railing on how you don’t trust me. If you don’t trust that my side information is accurate, then you have no reason to trust that my role information is correct either. Conversely, if you do trust that my role information is correct, then you also trust that the side information is correc. Therefore, side information alone should be sufficient information to operate your role. You either trust me or you don’t. You might say that you want role information to increase your trust, which is fine. But don’t conflate that with needing role information to operate your power, because you don’t.
You misunderstand my plan. My intention is to withhold role information so as to enable you to confirm your power. If we wake up Tomorrow and you tell us role information before Pleonast publicly reveals, then that will be much more convincing than if you come back and say, yeah, sachetorte was right _____ really is the _____.
How you went from that to thinking I was withholding information to prevent you from confirming is baffling to me. I’m trying to help you, and all I get is grief from you. Maybe I’ll just stop bothering.
I understand that you have your own plan. A roadblock consists of a choice between two tasks, each with its pros and cons…
You minunderstand the game mechanics. CatInASuit suggested you talk with Drain Bead Tonight and reveal her role Tomorrow. You rejected this out of blind and irrational distrust of me. You don’t need me for CatInASuit’s plan. Pleonast will reveal Drain Bead’s Side at Dusk. You will know 100% that Drain Bead is Town at Dusk. CatInASuit’s plan has merit, yet you dismiss it. Why? CatInASuit’s plan relies on your power alone and is independent of my role (well, marginally in that I need to not reveal Drain Bead’s Role for CatInASuit’s plan to work). Oh, look at that, a reason to withhold information!
Am I talking into the wind here? Someone tell me again why it’s a good idea for Idle Thoughts to use this once-a-game power to talk to the dead simply to prove his role-claim?
HazelNutCoffee,
My take is that we have to balance the timeliness of confirming Idle Thoughts against using his power optimally. If we wait too long, then we’ve given potential scum several days of additional nightkills (if Vampire). On the other hand, by waiting, we can potentially get more information about scum. An additional problem is that Idle Thoughts is merely the first of what could be many undocumented special powers. If we allow too much a of backlog now, then Two Days from now we could be faced with confronting several powerclaims at once (although we might be able to process them in parallel). Basically, we can’t wait forever for Idle Thoughts to confirm his power. It’s debatable how long we should wait.
Personally I would prefer not to waste it. However, if he talks to the witches, they will know who he is and vice versa, the seer/detective can pass on their findings. I will be honest and say I am not sure about the freemasons. I can’t see anything that says **Idle Thoughts ** definitely gets their secret handshake or whether he just gets a list of the other freemasons they have encountered.
Idle Thoughts - can you confirm how you know that you get their handshake or is it part of “their knowledge”?
Effectively, this comes down to a matter of trust.
Idle Thoughts has to trust sachertorte that the person he suggests is the right person to talk to of those who have already died. Then the town has to trust Idle Thoughts when he reports back. **Idle Thoughts ** can also confirm that the person he spoke to was useful providing trust in **sachertorte ** and confirmation of the role will be provided by **sachertorte ** and then **Pleonast ** after a couple of days.
If it works, we gain the information lost or increase the size of a pro-town power block. If either of them are scum or play anti-town, then it will waste the opportunity.
Idle Thoughts,
You have consistenly stated that you do not trust me. I’m fine with this, but you should also know that I don’t trust you. So given that I don’t trust you, the fact that I’m not revealing information that you have rabidly demanded should not be that surprising. I know that the town’s trust in me will increase as the game progresses. Our trust in you is minimal and stagnant. My waiting for you to trust me is not such a bad plan from my point of view.
With that in mind, each pre-Dusk I will state a player that I think Idle Thoughts should have a chat with. When Idle Thoughts is sufficiently trusting of me, he can talk with that spirit when he so chooses. Obviously, I will choose the optimal player for Idle Thoughts to speak with that evening.
If you trust me, do as I say.
If you do not trust me, do nothing.
Agreed, and what I came to post. Idle, if your intention is to order around the rest of the Town and lynch people who don’t immediately acquiesce or who question (or, heavens no, VOTE for) you, no thanks. I suppose you’ll add me to your personal lynch list for saying so, but you’ve come across as hostile for the whole of Yesterday and Today. Town needs to work together, and you’re not helping with this attitude of “with me or against me”, particularly since you are working against our (presumed) coroner.
We cannot accept that you are Town without verification. You said that you can easily be verified, but not without expending a considerable game advantage to Town - quite a pickle.
I’m not in favor of lynching you - yet - but this conversation cannot and will not revolve solely around you and I will not accept a scenario in which you harangue everyone for not being led by the nose. That’s anti-Town, flat out. And I won’t vote for someone for voting for you either, at this point.
