I think MTS’s point is that we don’t really need to know how many cultists there are right now. Eventually it will become critical, but not for several days, so why waste discussion on something that isn’t helpful today and distracts from our *real * and more immediate goal.
For example, there is a secret role. We don’t know if this secret role is pro-town or not. If during the course of the game the role is revealed, then we will have better information regarding the number of likely cultists. So in that sense, discussing numbers later doesn’t hurt us now, and could even be a benefit by avoiding unhelpful chatter.
On the cultist note: I kinda agree. Ultimately we won’t have certainty about that number; however we’ll have a good ballpark estimation sooner or later. NAF gave a good rule of thumb to get that figure (he modded M2; listen to him!).
The non-believers part is largely irrelevant. Even the non-believers don’t know how many they are or who they are. They can’t really play as a group.
Gee… you disagree with me on the fact that I thought you made a scum tell? Imagine that.
I didn’t say we didn’t need to figure out how many N-B’s and Cultists there are either,I said it was an accepted scum tell to bring it up.As far as figuring out how many there are…well,everyone can make a fairly educated guess, discussing it means nothing and gets us nowhere, as only the Cultists know for sure.
So on top of your original tell,I ain’t to keen on revenge votes or word twisting either.
Anyhow you asked for my thoughts and I gave em to ya.insert Pulp Fiction quote
Vote Clockwork Jackal
We need to establish what it is that players believe and how they behave. Random anything stops that. Saying that you are picking someone for no reason at all is a shield and yields absolutely no information, either about the person being voted for or the person doing the voting. ANY analysis, is better than no analysis.
Allow me to repost from M3 (with a couple of posts from Blaster in response) that argue my point. I am not going to post my Pirates posts right now, mostly because they are harder to sift though as many of them were made in Day .5.
Remember, Blaster was scum in that game. He is arguing the point that is most beneficial to scum, while at the same time trying to placate me (who they ended up killing that night.)
Just saying. I am not saying all our votes have to be super meaningful right now. But they need to be based on something that is happening in the game. Not based on a persons name, not based on what random.org is telling you.
There’s an angle that has been pretty neglected: Remember that, as important it is to vote, it’s equally important to remember the option to un-vote.
Especially during heated discussions, people like me sometimes tend to forget why they voted for someone in the first place. And it’s always a good idea to re-think the whole thing from time to time and to un-vote as appropiate.
Eh, I’m still not convinced. In the same discussion in the Pirates game, you two took the same positions, but you were scum and Blaster was not.
Our goal is to get people posting. To build up some relationships. So when one of us turns up eyeless in the morning, we’ll have something to go on.
Discussing strategy is good, as long as it doesn’t develop into real divisions.
Picking apart other peoples’ posts is an easy way for scum to start bandwagons. Using trivial nits to choose votes is no more accountable than random–just as easy for scum to hide behind.
Basing suspicions/votes on what’s in the game doesn’t work well on the first Day. That encourages lurking and puts an undue burden on the talkative. I think we need to get everyone in here and talking. Voting aggressively (even randomly) does that. I’m at least willing to take some heat to accomplish that.
Oh, Unvote USCDiver
You’re suspicion back on me would usually seem scummy to me. That’s not a good way to dispel suspicion on yourself (attacking your attacker). But, I think in your case it’s a the reaction of a newbie Townie. Be more careful in the future.
And in response I’ll un-suspect Pleonast. As I noted when I signed up for this thread, I’ve never played before, so thanks for the advice on newbie mistakes.
Only on the suspicion part I wouldn’t. In M3 most of the time, when I was pointed at and/or when I pointed at someone (incidentally, unvote ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies ) I got a pretty aggressive reaction. Most of the time I was pointing squarely at a townie. I think storyteller said something to that effect during the post-game discussions.
If memory serves, I was at least partially involved in that M3 “early game” random voting conversation as well, as a town player, and I leaned more towards Blaster’s views both then and now.
Ymmv on all of what I’m about to say.
Mine is not an “all or nothing” perspective. There are subtleties that need to be examined.
Random voting vs random FOSing: I personally have a higher comfort level with random FOSing during the first Day than random voting. Why? Because a FOS cannot be the gateway drug to a bandwagon, whereas a vote can be.
Ice-breaking: Poking sticks at people prompts them to post and gives us all fodder for actual analysis. As of typing this post, we’ve had at least one allegedly random vote, and I guess what you might call an allegedly traditional vote ( at Diggit), neither of which bother me much, aside from the bandwagon potential that they carry.
Always remember to interpret all things with an extra dose of skepticism: It is indeed possible and probable that the scum will be voting and FOSing and trying to say that such things were random. It is also possible and probable that the scum will pounce on opportunities provided by allegedly random selections made by others, whether they were legitimately random or not.
All that being said, I think that the random topic discussion is healthy, as is (informed) use and interpretation of truly random votes by those who are not confident in any other selection method.
Well, I thought enough of myself at the start of that game that I figured the best way to hide would be to try and mimic my play in M3 as closely as possible.
This is my point. No we won’t, not if all we have been doing is random voting. Odds are we are going to kill an innocent today. That’s just the odds in this game. WW1 was the only game I have ever seen where scum got killed right off the bat. But that death will be meaningless if we just go around random voting people. And the person who is killed tonight is going to yeild us no additional info either if all everyone has been doing is random voting.
Agreed
Clearly I disagree. But I think as far as this goes we will just have to agree to disagree. I laid out my argument, you laid out yours. I am interested in what others think about what we have said.
Then vote for lurkers, that is a legitimate vote at this stage.
I agree with all of that except the bit about random voting
Well, you will find me arguing against your line of thinking, but I am not going to give you heat just because we disagree.
Actually, I agree with just about everything in this post. I think there is a big difference between poking someone with a stick and randomly voting for them.
On Random Voting: I would say that random voting is probably more useful than chattering about the merits of random voting. I can’t see how random voting is all that hurtful. Possibly useless, yes, but not all that much of a cover for scum. now if someone starts random voting on day three or even during the later part of day one, then, yeah bad stuff.
Does everyone agree with Pasta? I *love *discussing strategy and game mechanics, but I don’t want to pull a **chrisk **from M2.
Like I said “scum tells aren’t always scum tells”,but I have seen the ones ring true that I have pointed out,especially with zuma in M4 when I FOSed him twice with “crappy” scum tells, before he role claimed as me .
Using the 3rd vote as an example isn’t a good one, since I was the one making the 3rd vote (and knew I was making it) and felt confident I could defend that action, if I had to.(Not to mention, it did work in M1,unfortunately)
So no…I do not think they are “crap” and think some of these posts are already incriminating.
I agree with this; I always feel that random voting is a mistake. As is pressure-voting - voting someone just to get them to say something specific. I never do them, and neither will I respond to them, even if it means I get lynched (or, in this case, drowned). I’ll go along with FOSs though, because they can’t be turned into a bandwagon.
The sheer size of the game offers some protection against bandwagons, but that does not change my opinion of random votes. Pleonast is looking slightly dirty in my eyes now - but then he seems to do this every game, so I should be used to it by now.
Still, there’s plenty of time to consider action and reaction before voting.
All, I have started the Forbidden Thread. If you are alive, you are on your honor to not read. All dead, observers, and subs are welcome to comment as they feel appropriate.
at Diggit), neither of which bother me much, aside from the bandwagon potential that they carry.