Mafia V: The Cult of Sekham

I’m not willing to chance it that a pro-Town power role is going to play it perfectly. The Disciple, for example, has been poorly played this game. If Mal really is the Disciple, he gave away too much information and he didn’t vote. If he’s not, then the real Disciple should have claimed by now.

Are you willing to gamble the results of the game on whether the Apprentice feels like risking another Night? I’m not.

The Disciple is still alive and can guarantee one Night’s worth of protection. The Town needs the information, not bread crumbs.

I suppose the answer to this is yes. Really what I am prepared to gamble on is allowing the apprentice to do as they please without all this talk from suspicious people. As the apprentice has perfect information about what they know. You don’t. I don’t. Just because mal fucked up has no bearing on the apprentice situation.

Wow, you have way too much faith in the ability of the Apprentice to leave breadcrumbs. I think we’ve found that breadcrumbs are not all that helpful. As far as I’m concerned, if the Apprentice dies without telling us his/her results, they might as well have never investigated anyone.

I don’t see how you can oppose revealing the investigation results, unless you’re worried about what they say…

–FCOD

Alrighty then. Welcome to the game, ** CatinaSuit**.

I’m also willing to consider CatinaSuit’s second theory, moving Diggit2, Kyrie, and Idle lower on my suspicion list. I don’t believe I’ve been looking in Kyrie or Diggit’s directions much of late anyway, so that doesn’t feel like much of a change. Giving Idle more slack is another matter…

I’m not sure that I’m willing to consider Queuing’s proposal or some sort of consensus plea for the Apprentice to spill the beans as advocated by FCOD, Hockey, Pygmy & Pleonast.

But I’m getting a bit ahead of myself. I have homework to turn in first.

Open Item #1: A yet again closer look at those most vocal in their suspicion of those who vote for the role-claimed.

My research was far from exhaustive, but I did the best I could in the time I had. The first post that bubbled up was the bottom of Idle’s 2187, and then again in (the now oft cited by me) 2301. (I guess I have been looking at him more recently, at least some of his behavior).

Zuma2 also voiced these views in 2351.

Then the three of us discuss the topic more in-depth between 2563 and 2570.

Pleonast later echoes these sentiments in 2707

Open Item #2: Analysis regarding MHaye and Pygmy.

I’m afraid I’ve run out of time for this particular post (which I’ve been chipping away at for a couple of hours now), so I’ll have to pick up on that later.

Actually it does.

Thing is: the Disciple (welcome, CatinaSuit, by the by) has a 50% chance of blocking a Night Kill. So we can’t actually guarantee the Disciple will survive the Night.

However, if the general protection wasn’t used up by the Priest, the Disciple has now the chance to guarantee one more Night for him/herself and another player.

If my premises are right, we could have:

  1. The Apprentice role claiming toDay. And spilling the beans about investigations
  2. The Disciple protects him/herself AND the Apprentice du8ring toNight
  3. The Apprentice tells us about his/her investigations
  4. The Disciple or the Apprentice dies during the next Night
  5. We lose either protection or investigation during that Night

Overall, it would help the Town for at least the next two Days. And face it, we need that help. So far we haven’t really been on the mark…

Now, the question I have is: did anyone spot Fretful as the Priest? I certainly didn’t. The thing is, if the scum spotted her, they have an uncanny knack for guessing roles… or the special role isn’t town-aligned. My guess is it would be an investigator for scum.

In that case, my theory would be:

  1. The scum investigator had previously investigated Fretful and knew her role
  2. **Fretful ** protected all of us the Night before last and lost protection for herself for last Night
  3. Since the scum hadn’t targeted her and Mal revealed whom he had protected, they guessed her actions for the Night before last and knew she would be unprotected last Night…

And it would explain Pleonast’s “delenda Malacandra” campaign…

vote Pleonast

Prepare for a long read. And algebra. Although I did try to keep that to a minimum.

Once again the town manages to put their noose around an innocent neck who has only one recourse to save themselves.

I’ve been contemplating the necessity of an eventual roleclaim for about he last three Days. So long as people talked about voting me but didn’t (or did so in low numbers ) I was probably free from the prying eye of the Cult wondering if I was their quarry. So thanks folks for enabling me to stay hidden this long.

For those who want it spelled out, I am The Apprentice.

My investigations to date fall into two groups – those before the Oracle died, and those after.

BOD I was guaranteed to get an answer, but not certain that it would be right. The problem is that no-one can be sure of the investigation result without some outside evidence – either an Oracle investigation (and that is denied us) or the death of the subject. AOD I’m no longer guaranteed an answer, but have 100% confidence in any answer I receive being the one Hal would have gained.

I was never told that Hal investigated me, so all discussion of accuracy and confidence assumes that I had 50% accuracy BOD and 30% chance of misfire per investigation AOD.

Before revealing the investigations, please understand that if the subject is still alive, I will report only one of three results.[ul][li]The subject believes in Nairu,[/li][li]the subject does not believe in Nairu,[/li][li]or the subject is the Avatar of Sekham.[/ul]I’ll reveal the actual results of investigations of dead players.[/li]
I’m going to report AOD investigations first, because they require slitghtly less discussion.[ul][li]Night 4 was saw me investigate Pleonast. He believes in Nairu.[/li][li]I read FlyingCowOfDoom in night 5, who believes in Nairu.[/li][li]On Night 6 I investigated Malacandra (now replaced by CatinaSuit), who I learned believes in Nairu.[/li][li]Night 7 saw me investigate Sachertorte, who also believes in Nairu.[/ul]The names should be familiar, as that particular list has had a lot of discussion. On why that particular order, Pleonast was on two lists I wanted to look at (and was the only point of overlap), I looked at Mal in night 6 because I considered it likely that there would be a move to hang him, and Sachertorte was a result of crossed wires – I was planning on looking at him later, probably in night 8.[/li]
At this point I don’t want to reveal exactly what results I got. It might be necessary in the hunt for the Prophet, so I’m looking for opinions on the issue. Should I state whether the players have power roles or not?

Yes I have been a bit lucky, as I’d have expected one foggy night in four with a 30% failure chance. It is possible to get four straight successes, but taken as a whole the chance is aroundabout ¼. Still, lets not look a gift horse in the mouth.

Interpreting the BOD investigations would be a lot harder, if more than one of them were alive. While the accuracy of these investigations was 50%, that doesn’t mean I have a 50% chance of being wrong. The chance of my getting the same result as the Oracle goes up as the number of unknown players goes down and as the number of players with the same role goes up. So to estimate the confidence of the result, you have to estimate the number of players in each role.

Currently I think the game started with the sum total of players holding “non-believer” roles to be about 10 – the Alchemist, the Psychopath, some number of regular Cultists and the balance non-believers. The regular Cultists don’t include either the Prophet or the Avatar. I estimated nine or ten “identifiable Power” roles – those who I would get the a role name. This consists of one each Oracle, Apprentice, Priest, Disciple, Crusader, and Avatar, plus 3-4 Monks. The balance (10-11) would read Believers.

It’s easier to work out the chance I’d get a wrong result from an investigation, and then subtract that from 1 to get the chance I’d be right.

The investigations were :-[ul][li]Autolycus (aka DiggitCamara[sub]2[/sub]), who appears not to believe in Nairu, on Night 1.[/li][li]Fluiddruid, who appeared to be a Believer, in Night 2.[/li][li]HazelNutCoffee, who appeared to be a Believer, in Night 3.[/ul]The latter two were correct, as we learned when they died. DiggitCamara[sub]2[/sub] though, is still uncertain. My confidence on that investigation is about two in three, or if you want a range 60-70%.[/li]
There were then 29 players. Since I didn’t get “Avatar” he was one of the 28 non-Avatar players.
There was a 50% chance that the investigation returned a random result.
If it did, the chance I would get a wrong reading was (Surviving non-Avatar players – survivng Non-Believers)/Surviving non-Avatar players.

I estimated that there were 9 surviving Non-Believers. Thus the chance I was wrong was 0.5 * 19/28 = 0.339 (to one decimal place) and thus the chance I was right was 1-0.339 = 0.661 or 66.1%. Thus I think there’s approximately two chances in three that tis is right.

I still think the estimate of non-believers total is reasonable, although it may be one less, in which case my confidence drops to 64.2%.

Once you’ve had a chance to digest that I’m sure you have questions. I’ll do my best to field them, although I must break for tea in the next couple of hours.

That’s a load off my mind, actually. I’ve been a bit fearful of saying anything lest my words - and particularly my votes - be misinterpreted if I died before claiming.

On preview : Diggit, you do realise your last two posts are actually incompatible? If Fretful Porpentine used the reagenst to do her “protect all” ritual, the Disciple can’t get hold of them to do the “protect 2” ritual.

Where did I say I didn’t want to hear the apprentice’s results? I haven’t. Nice try though.

What I have said, what I have always said, is IMO talking about power roles does absolutely nothing good. Asking them to claim does nothing good. They can claim, or not claim, it is up to them. Making demands of power roles is not at all useful.

Well alright then, done is done.

unvote mhaye

dunk diggit camara

You’re absolutely right.

The thing is, Fretful’s death has been bothering me. Actually the accuracy of the Cult has been bothering me for a while. And I have the feeling that Fretful (like most “Doctors”) would have been self-protecting for a while, unless she had a possible target scoped out.

However, if she outguessed the Cult on one Night, wouldn’t she self-protect on the following Night? I know I’m trying to guess her behavior, but her death simply makes no sense to me.

Would it be useful for our supposed Disciple to tell us if the multiple protect option still is available?

ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!

–FCOD

Shockingly I am going to say no here. Let the disciple do as she pleases.

OK. Here’s a list of the remaining players:

Sufficient information to trust (IMO):
Hockey Monkey - Alchemist
sachertorte - Believer, but possibly the Prophet
CatinaSuit - Disciple
Pleonast - Martyr
FlyingCowOfDoom - Believer, but possibly the Prophet
Zeriel - Monk
MHaye - Apprentice

Unknown:
USCDiver
Idle Thoughts
NAF1138
Kyrie Eleison
Pygmy Rugger
Queuing
zuma [Ver. 2]
ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies
DiggitCamara [Ver. 2]

Unvote MHaye. Vote DiggitCamara

–FCOD

66% chance is better than anything we’ve had so far.

unvote MHaye

Vote DiggitCamara

Fist, the Disciple should say nothing about his powers, past, present or future. Let the Cult guess.

Thank you, MHaye for the information. This will help the Town immensely.

Let’s take a look at the remaining players,
USCDiver: unknown status
Idle Thoughts: unknown status
Hockey Monkey: claimed Alchemist
NAF1138: unknown status
sachertorte: confirmed Believer
CatinaSuit: claimed Disciple, confirmed Believer
Kyrie Eleison: unknown status
Pleonast: claimed Martyr, confirmed Believer
Pygmy Rugger: unknown status
FlyingCowOfDoom: confirmed Believer
Queuing: unknown status
Zeriel: claimed Monk
zuma [Ver. 2]: unknown status
ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies: unknown status
DiggitCamara [Ver. 2]: possible Unbeliever
MHaye: claimed Apprentice

Accepting all current claims, we have 8 players with unknown status, plus Diggit, who appears to be an Unbeliever. That gives us about a 50-50 chance to dunk a Cultist. I’ll leave my vote on Idle for the time being, while I think about the options.

Diggit, the Cult doesn’t need an investigative role. The power roles tend to leave tell-tale signs and knowing who is Cult makes it that much easier to narrow it down.

On preview, I see FlyingCow has done a similar list. Anyway, here’s mine.

Don’t forget that Hockey, sach, Flying, MHayeand possibly Pleo are vulnerable to conversion, (IIRC info roles can be turned but monk/priest cannot)

Oh well, I was suspicious of Diggit anyway.

unvote MHaye.
vote DiggitCamara

Actually, I’d have far less confidence in the result. After all, MHaye says he investigated Pleonast, Malacandra, **Fluiddruid **and HazelNutCoffee. All probable Believers, though I have my doubts about Pleonast… all confirmed in his investigations.

In other words, we have nothing but “correct” results yet. Is that really likely?

I know his result on me is wrong.

Nope. So far I’d have agreed with you. But the thing is, they hit **Fretful ** on the Night where she wasn’t self-protecting.

By the way: your “confirmed Believer” list is not only misleading but downright dangerous.

(bolding mine)

You’re misunderstanding, apparently. IF MHaye is the Apprentice, then his math appears correct by the rules of the game as to the chances that you’re a non-believer. Actually, it’s something around actually 2/3-3/4 likely that any given read by the Apprentice will be correct, since a miss on the 50% reverts to “select a role at random from the remaining living”, and NOT “give opposite result”. Therefore, it’s much more likely that he’s gotten lucky and got correct results for his first three readings. I can do a simplified example if you don’t follow this.

And his investigation lists are pretty similar to what I’d’ve done in his shoes–focusing on the quieter folks and the folks who are just nearly evading a dunking.

And please, we don’t need any “But, but…I’m a vanilla townie, for serious.” Gussy it all you like, but there’s no disadvantage to claiming it so every scum will do so. So will every vanilla townie.

If the Apprentice is not MHaye, he’d damn well better claim.

I am…not the Apprentice. :smiley:

So much for moving Diggit down on my suspects list. Vote Diggit.